fearlessly proclaiming the truth & the other truth! voice of the teknoshamanic institute
Bend Your Country Over While I Slip You Some Cash
Published on November 23, 2005 By kingbee In Politics

(this is a response of sorts to rightwinger's strange view of the world located here: Link.  more specifically, it's a reply to this statement:

"You always seem to have a good grasp and command of some particular facts that I do not have. Admittedly, this often frustrates me because I just don't have the time to look everything up in order to give you a really good thrashing.
That's all well and good, but as for this article, I'm not seeing you addressing the actual point of the post itself. You're using this grasp of these facts I refer to in order to chip away at smaller issues you have with my line of reasoning. Fine, I understand were you're coming from, but I have yet to see from you an outright, firey dismissal of my point itself, that liberals (and in general the Left as a whole) love and suck up to dictators.
All I'm getting is you trying to cloud the issue with your "Nyah, Nyah....your side does it, too....Nyah, Nyah!"

Is this because even you can't/won't deny something of which you can't debate the truth?")

as requested, i'm gonna deal with as much of your original post as i'm able.  you've managed to combine such a mix of inaccuracies, suppositions, mischaracterizations, it's gonna require a buncha words.  rather than use up all your blog space and to ensure i'll be able to utilize some or all of this again as needed, i'm gonna do that here. 

your article  winds and wanders so much i see no way to do this but start at the beginning: 

"Why does the Left, that entity which claims to so admire things like freedom of speech, the press, thought and things like Human Rights, why do they always seem to embrace the totalitarians and tyrants? The dictatorships and despots?
Why do they, these arbiters of unfettered personal expression, always find ways to explain away their favorite tinpot Hitler's oppressive indescretions and apologize for their abuses?"

my perspective is the exact opposite.  you'll recall my list of dictators who, very sad to say, were either helped into office or helped to remain there by our government?  they didn't find sympathy nor support from the left.  their patrons weren't merely republicans (altho many of them were) nor always conservatives (i make a definite distinction between conservatives and umm rightwingers). 

all of them used--and were used by--the american right wing.

"I've seen these questions debated again and again here on JU; why do the dictatorships get a pass, while the democracies, the ones they SHOULD be supporting, always seem to come under their fire?
Like when they do things such as impose sanctions against dictators and their nations, and especially when they increase their building of arms to stand against the oppression symbolized by the totalitarians. Instead of working to free the oppressed, it seems the liberals are more than happy to let their favorite tyrants go merrily about their business unmolested."

yeah yeah yeah...nothing in the paragraph above but restating your premise and garnishing it with your opinion.  i'll pass.

"For example, as Jimmy Carter spent four years coddling the Soviets and schmoosing Fidel Castro, all the while ignoring, and even lending tacit support to, Leftist stirrings in Central Amercia and Africa, democracy lost ground the world over. We got weaker by the day.
Ronald Reagan went into office and, eight years later, against the warning cries and apologizing of Democrats in the House and Senate, and that of liberal elements among our "allies" (all of whom would have been much more than content with some level of peaceful co-existence with the USSR), had virtually ended forty years of Cold War, advancing the frontiers of democracy everywhere
."

ok.  let's start with central america.  actually let's focus on nicaragua beginning in the early 1900s.

fact: america involved itself in nicaragua's affairs by invading the country in 1909 on the very flimsy pretext that warships and a force of marines were needed to protect american lives.

fact:  communism was not a factor in any conflict involving nicaraguan combatants. 

fact:  500 revolutionaries were captured and executed by then-president zelaya.  two of them were americans. 

fact: the real reason for the invasion was twofold:

  •  the country had potential for a viable waterway between the atlantic and pacific oceans to compete with roosevelt's canal thru panama
  •  like the other central american countries, nicaragua had a lotta resources and american business wanted to exploit them as cheaply as possible.

fact:  president zelaya resigned shortly thereafter. 

fact: the marines left but returned to occupy nicaragua from 1912-1925 and again from 1926 -1933. 
 
prior to the us invasion in 1909, nicaragua had a history of political conflict between so-called conservatives and liberals.  they could as easily called themselves hatfields and mccoys.  both factions were comprised of descendants of the non-mixed european minority  (70% of the country's population is mestizo; 10% is black,  5% are non-mixed native peoples)  who also owned or controlled a great deal of the country (either by grants issued by the spanish crown prior to independence in the mid-1800s or taken by force).   essentially conservatives were monarchists who wanted to preserve their faux aristocracy...liberals wished to emulate upper class victorian brits.

fact: from 1927-1933 a guerilla army fought both the conservatives and the us occupiers under the command of general sandino (who gave his name to the sandinistas).  in 1933, after the us set up a troika, the marines withdrew.   sandino was one of the three co-rulers.  another was carlos jarquin.

fact: before they left, the us marines created an army/police organization called the guardio nacional.  its purpose was to protect american business interests.   a nicaraguan named anastasio somoza garcia   was put in charge of the guardio before the marines left.   somoza was also the third co-ruler.

fact: thanks to support from the us, somoza garcia was able to take control of the country as its sole leader (sandino was assassinated in 1934).  for the next 40 years, somoza and his family ruled nicaragua as if it were his private fiefdom. 

fact: as head of the guardio, somoza controls most government enterprises including the radio networks, railroads, post office, telegraph utility, health services.

fact:  there was a small population of german immigrants who'd established themselves in the country during the 19th century.  during wwii, somoza 'helped' the us by confiscating their land and giving it to himself.   by 1979,  the somaza family and its friends--a full 4% of the population--owned 52% of the country.

fact:  on paper, nicaragua benefitted financially by supplying the us with produce during wwii.  most of the revenue winds up in somoza's pockets.

by the end of wwii, somoza was the country's largest landowner (he owned most of nicaragua's cattle ranches and coffee plantations, all the banks, the national railroad and airlines, a cement factory, textile plants, electric power companies and urban rental property.   in 1945, he was believed to be worth $60 million usd.

wikipedia provides one reason why somoza was happily supported by american business interests:

"From 1945 to 1960, the U.S.-owned Nicaraguan Long Leaf Pine Company (NIPCO) directly paid the Somoza family millions of dollars in exchange for favorable trade terms, such as not having to re-forest clear cut areas. By 1961, NIPCO had cut all of the commercially viable coastal pines in northeast Nicaragua. Expansion of cotton plantations in the 1950s and cattle ranches in the 1960s forced peasant families from the areas they had farmed for decades. Some were forced by the National Guard to relocate into colonization projects in the rainforest. Some moved eastward into the hills, where they cleared forests in order to plant crops. Soil erosion forced them, however, to abandon their land and move deeper into the rainforest. Cattle ranchers claimed the abandoned land. Peasants and ranchers continued this movement deep into the rain forest. By the early 1970s, Nicaragua had become the United States' top beef supplier. The beef supported fast-food chains and pet food production. Six Miami, Florida meat-packing plants and the largest slaughterhouse in Nicaragua were all owned by President Anastasio Somoza Debayle.

Also in the 1950s and 1960s, 40% of all U.S. pesticide exports went to Central America. Nicaragua and its neighbors widely used compounds banned in the U.S., such as DDT, endrin, dieldrin and lindane. In a later study (1977) it was revealed that mothers living in León had 45 times more DDT in their breast milk than the World Health Organization deemed safe."

by the late 40s/early 50s, other wealthy landowners--who'd been somoza's supporters--began to worry they were next on his list. 

fact: anastasio somoza garcia was assassinated in 1956. his oldest son luis somoza debayle assumed his father's position while the younger son, anastasio somoza debayle, became head of the guardio.  luis would die within 10 years from heart trouble.  anastasio, who graduated from west point and was close to american military commanders, wound up holding all the cards.

fact: in 1972, managua--the capitol of nicarauga--was hit by a devastating earthquake.  10,000 people died and another 500,000 were left homeless.  in the aftermath, members of the guardio nacional began looting the city.  it was then discovered that somoza debayle was diverting much of the international aid contributions to his own bank accounts.

starting in the early 60s, nicaraguan rebels began organizing a revolution.  by the early 1970s, they were beginning to hurt the regime.  in 1974, somoza voided the law prohibiting him from running for another term as president.  after the election, he ordered the guardio nacional to wipe out the rebels.  in the course of doing that, they razed rural villages and alienated the nicaraguan people even more

fact: while human rights groups condemned somoza and his thugs, gerald ford continued to supply him with arms and money.

fact: in 1978, the publisher of nicaragua's opposition newspaper is assassinated, touching off open rebellion.

fact: in reprisal, somoza ordered his air force to  "bomb everything that moves until it stops moving."

finally we get to the point where you claim carter was ignoring the rise of communism in central america.

in fact, ford had tried a policy called (if you can believe how idiotic this was)  "somocismo without somoza" in hopes of maintaining us influence in the event somoza was taken out by his own people.  . 

after nearly 20 years of fighting and nearly 40 years of being terrorized by somozas who were enriched in return for allowing american interests destroy their country, there wasn't much american president could have done to convince the rebels we had their welfare at heart.

time was running out for the right wing's man in managua. 

here's wikipedia's account of the last days:

"By June 1979, the National Guard was carrying out massive atrocities in the war against the Sandinistas, bombing residential neighborhoods in Managua and killing thousands of people. At that point, the U.S. ambassador sent a cable to the White House saying it would be "ill-advised" to tell the Guard to call off the bombing, because such an action would help the Sandinistas gain power. When the National Guard executed ABC reporter Bill Stewart and graphic film of the execution was broadcast, the American public became more antipathetic to Somoza. In the end, President Jimmy Carter refused Somoza U.S. military aid, believing that the repressive nature of the government had led to popular support for the Sandinista uprising.

As Somoza's government collapsed, the U.S. helped Somoza and National Guard commanders escape, Somoza fleeing to exile in Miami. The rebels advanced on the capital victoriously. On July 19, 1979 a new government was proclaimed under a provisional junta headed by Daniel Ortega (then age 35) and including the Violeta Chamorro, Pedro's widow.

The United Nations estimated material damage from the revolutionary war to be US$480 million. The FSLN took over a nation plagued by malnutrition, disease, and pesticide contaminations. Lake Managua was considered dead because of decades of pesticide runoff, toxic chemical pollution from lakeside factories, and untreated sewage. Soil erosion and dust storms were also a problem in Nicaragua at the time due to deforestation. To tackle these crises, the FSLN created the Nicaraguan Institute of Natural Resources and the Environment.

The Sandinistas were victorious in the national election of November 4, 1984. The election was certified as free and fair by international observers allowed into the country by the Sandinistas, although certain groups, principally the Nicaraguan political opposition and the Reagan administration, disputed this, objecting to political restrictions placed on the opposition by the government. Some opposition political figures boycotted the election, although others took part either as opposition parties or in coalition with the FSLN."

fact: by the time somoza had fled, first to miami, then to paraguay where he was assassinated, 50,000 nicaraguans were dead, 120,000 had been exiled and 600,000 were homeless.  nicaragua is, today, the 2nd poorest nation in the hemisphere after haiti.

when reagan was elected, he began to wage war intended to help pro-somoza guardio members retake the government.   a number of bush's chickenhawks were actively involved in the us proxy war to put these thugs back into power.  throughout the 80s, america supported the worst kind of butchers kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people in central america. 

ask the people of central america which side supported them in their fight to free themselves from dictators...and who supported those dictators, paid them huge sums of money and supplied them with arms and advisers. 

ask yourself what gives the us the right--after directly interfering with nicaragua's sovereignity by occupying the country for 25 years and then inflicting a family of monsters on them--to assist what was truly the central american equivalent of hussein's baathist insurgents in overthowing their democratically elected government?   
 

PART 2 continuation (or something close)....

"Ronald Reagan went into office and, eight years later, against the warning cries and apologizing of Democrats in the House and Senate, and that of liberal elements among our "allies" (all of whom would have been much more than content with some level of peaceful co-existence with the USSR), had virtually ended forty years of Cold War, advancing the frontiers of democracy everywhere."

why haven't you provided some names and statements?  surely with all those congresspeople and senators crying and apologizing, there must be something you can cite.  which liberal elements among our allies were looking forward to permanent peaceful co-existence with the ussr? 

while you may  believe reagan deserves most--if not all--of the credit for the soviet union's implosion, it's still an open question and will remain one much longer than it might have thanks to the current bush's obsession with keeping presidential papers out of public view. 

in the meantime, one needs to ask what exactly did reagan do to end 40 years of cold war?  surely you're not so foolish to believe he was some sorta neo-alladin using the magic words 'tear down this wall'? 

it clearly had nothing to do with central america; his bullying endeavors there killed a lotta nicaraguans, hondurans, salvadorans and guatemalans, enriched a lotta dope dealers, military suppliers, better equipped the iranians and helped to destroy our credibility and reputation but did no real damage to the soviet union or cuba.  

"Leftwing elements the world over decried his policies as fascist, militaristic and oppressive. This, even as he funded the upgrading of Voice of America and Radio Liberty and supported and nutured the fledgling, suppressed Solidarity movement in Poland to the chagrin of the Polish government, the USSR and the "Democratic" Republic of Germany (East Germany)."

you do recall what solidarity was to begin with?  a trade union. 

perhaps you also recall how ronald reagan--who was endorsed by patco--dealt with members of that trade union?  the same way  jaruzelski.did solidarnosc...only more successfully. 

"And what of his aid to the beseiged Mujahedeen in Afghanistan? Those people, he backed against direct Soviet aggression.
Where were the cries of "militarists!" and "oppressors!" from demonstrators outside Soviet and Eastern Bloc nation's embassies"

you may find this difficult to accept (because it pretty much invalidates your whole thesis): in afghanistan, reagan simply adopted a program initiated by carter. 

here's how robert gates recalled things in an interview with the bbc last year:  Link

"Beginning early in 1979, the United States government began considering providing covert support to the potential opposition in the mujahideen in Afghanistan and, beginning in July, actually the president authorised that kind of support.

I would say though that, until the invasion, all of the support was non-lethal: in other words, once it actually began in the fall, it tended to be more in the way of medicines and supplies of communications equipment and that sort of thing.

It changed immediately after the invasion and then the president signed what we call a lethal finding which provided authority for the CIA to brief, or to provide, the mujahideen with weaponry.

The American role for the most part in this war was that of quartermaster, of logistician. We had virtually no control over ground operations or in terms of directing the mujahideen or in terms of what to attack or when or anything else. To the degree that they took any outside advice, it was probably the Pakistanis'.

Our general principle was to provide the weaponry to the groups that were doing the heaviest fighting and we had an independent view of that as well as what we heard from the Pakistanis and we worked pretty hard to direct the weaponry in that direction.

For example, the Pakistanis were generally reluctant to provide, for example, Stinger [anti-aircraft] missiles to [Ahmed Shah] Masood and the Tajiks up in the Panjsher Valley and it was under pressure from the US, from the CIA, because we knew that they were doing a great deal of the fighting and we felt that the Pakistanis were being held by some ethnic prejudices there. "

interviewed by the bbc for the same broadcast,  yuli vorontsov--former ussr ambassador to afghanistan--tells how carter drew them in...confirming both gates and brzezinski (below):

 "First of all the decision was taken in order to stop the Americans from getting involved in Afghanistan.

  It was decided to go for the surgical method of dealing with the situation and in doing so we ended up inflicting a surgical wound on ourselves

Everything that was said about helping the Afghan people and all the rest of it, well that wasn't really what it was all about.

Perhaps someone did want to help them but the main reason was to stake out the territory for ourselves and stop the Americans from getting involved.

I was Soviet ambassador in India at the time [of the invasion] and I tried afterwards to do my own personal investigation into the reasons why Soviet troops were sent in.

It was a mistake, first and foremost a mistake on the part of Soviet intelligence services. They took seriously some information - I don't know where they got it from, I couldn't establish what the sources were - but they took seriously some information that the Americans were in all seriousness planning to deploy forces in Afghanistan and open a base there.

If there had been a US base there in those days, it wouldn't have been very good for us. It would have been one more link in the chain of US military bases that in those days encircled the Soviet Union. The thought that a base might be built in the south, and that planes would be flying over and that kind of thing, was very worrying for some people.

Not for the military. They were not afraid but the politicians were. The military didn't want to invade. I discovered that later, in conversations with the general staff of the army and the KGB, with people like Marshal Akhromeyev and people like that. The military were totally against it. "

'le nouvel observateur' asked zbigniew brzezinski about the carter administration's role in afghanistan during an interview conducted in january, 1998: Link

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire"

(just as an aside, you keep asking me to disprove your unsupported assertions.  the burden of proving your claims rests on you, not me.  you're not seriously expecting me to refute your unsubstantiated personal political-mythology-presented-as-history??)

"
Comments (Page 1)
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on Nov 23, 2005
I don't understand how this answers the original question.

But "Nicaragua" seems to be a left-wing word that seems to mean (to left-wingers) "official refutal of any right-wing position". It's not.


I have yet to see from you an outright, firey dismissal of my point itself, that liberals (and in general the Left as a whole) love and suck up to dictators.


The point still stands.
on Nov 23, 2005

fact: the marines left but returned to occupy nicaragua from 1912-1925 and again from 1926 -1933. 

You display an impressive list of facts, but they only prove that your theme is incorrect.  Case in point.  Wilson was a democrat.  As was Truman, Kennedy, Johnson.  And you list the sins we committed against Nicarauga during their tenure.

The fact is the propping up of right wing despots was done under both Republican and Democrat Leadership up to and including early Carter.  From there, owing to the Mcgovern swing of the democrat party, they decided that communism was fine and that no more right wing despots should be supported.  The Republicans disagreed through Reagan, when the Berlin Wall fell (granted it was the year after he left office, but it was his policies we are talking about, not the masons who dismantled it).  Since that time, you would be hard pressed, and seem to admit it through your tacit lack of any documentation since then, to find the United states supporting any dictator thugs, other than to leave them alone.  But not all were left alone.  Slobosovic (sp), the Taliban and Hussein being the ones that have felt the wrath of the US.  I would not classify all of them as right wing dictators, indeed the only ones that were rabid anti-communist were the Taliban. And a Republican took them out.

So in your zeal to disprove rightwinger, you actually made a side point in support of his thesis.  And proved nothing other than the US in the past has been a thug to some of the smaller countries.  I do not believe that was or is part of his contention.  No one is denying it.  It is history.  But it is a shared history of both republicans and democrats.

So your title is wrong.  RIGHTWINGERS and LEFTWINGERS is how it should read.

on Nov 23, 2005
What Dr. Guy said.
on Nov 23, 2005
First you say this:

as requested, i'm gonna deal with as much of your original post as i'm able. you've managed to combine such a mix of inaccuracies, suppositions, mischaracterizations, it's gonna require a buncha words. rather than use up all your blog space and to ensure i'll be able to utilize some or all of this again as needed, i'm gonna do that here.


You claim to answer as much as possible. Then you say this:

"I've seen these questions debated again and again here on JU; why do the dictatorships get a pass, while the democracies, the ones they SHOULD be supporting, always seem to come under their fire?
Like when they do things such as impose sanctions against dictators and their nations, and especially when they increase their building of arms to stand against the oppression symbolized by the totalitarians. Instead of working to free the oppressed, it seems the liberals are more than happy to let their favorite tyrants go merrily about their business unmolested."

yeah yeah yeah...nothing in the paragraph above but restating your premise and garnishing it with your opinion. i'll pass.


You'll passs? Why even bother making this article, saying you're gonna answer as much as you can and then say you'll pass?
on Nov 23, 2005
I don't understand how this answers the original question


don't surprise me at all.

"Nicaragua" seems to be a left-wing word that seems to mean (to left-wingers) "official refutal of any right-wing position". It's not.


it might not be. if only there weren't so many other similar abberations.

The point still stands.


stay tuned. i don't have unlimited time to devote to this. i inadvertantly edited out my final intended paragraph. i'm not finished with this by any means.
on Nov 23, 2005

if only there weren't so many other similar abberations.


Then go ahead and mention those. It would at least be more original than screaming "Nicaragua" all the time.
on Nov 23, 2005
hey since we are reaching back in time to prove a point, how about those dirty Italians that killed all those innocent Jews at Masada?

How about those traitorous colonials betraying their King George?

How about Spain slaughtering poor innocent Indians here in america?

How about how american POWS were treated by the dastardly Japanese> and Germans> and then in a later war the north vietnamese?

My point being is that all countries make mistakes americaq is no different.
on Nov 23, 2005
And proved nothing other than the US in the past has been a thug to some of the smaller countries. I do not believe that was or is part of his contention. No one is denying it. It is history. But it is a shared history of both republicans and democrats.


no. he very clearly contends 'the left' loves and caters to dictators due to it's intrinsic determination to force 'big government' on the world. on the other hand, reagan and the bushes are the three best friends oppressed peoples around the world have ever had.

i'm by no means finished with this. i'll reserve some space to address your naive assertion about how things are all better now.
on Nov 23, 2005
You'll passs? Why even bother making this article, saying you're gonna answer as much as you can and then say you'll pass?


the paragraph i was dismissing is nothing more than a restatement of his introduction. bad enuff we have to spend any time dealing with redundancies.
on Nov 23, 2005
My point being is that all countries make mistakes americaq is no different


unless leauki continues to insist (rathre obtusely) i gotta dredge up iran, the dominican republic, panama, el salvador, honduras, greece, iraq, cambodia, vietnam, the philippines, cuba and many of europe's former colonies in africa, i'll be dealing with 1974 to the present from here on in.

your point is acknowledged. it differs considerably from rightwinger's...and that's who i'm attempting to answer at the moment.

(btw...check out shovelheat's celebrity blog. your response blew me away cuz our reactions at the time seem to have been almost scarily similar)
on Nov 23, 2005
Fact: as I stated, the Left's preoccupation with dictators seems to have started with F D Roosevelt who, up to that point, had seemed to be one of the last of the old-line moderate liberals, more or less.
Who gives a damn about what happened in Nicaragua in 1909? I started in 1945.
I never said supporting dictators was a good and proper thing for either side to do.
As Dr. Guy and I both noted, conservatives may help place them in power and support them for whatever reasons, political or economic, but they don't much seem to like them. Liberals seem to.
You have yet to address, much less DENY, this, my original point: that the Left sucks up to dictators like Jenna Jameson at a hot dog eating contest.
I mean, Carter is forever going over to have a friendly chat with Kim Jong Il; Jesse Jackson is always jetting off to some pissant flyspeck country to have BBQ and a game of mah-jongg with the local tyrant.

Now, since you've spent all this time and energy telling me off and lecturing me all about how the conservatives back tyrants, too (a point I never denied in the first place), how about telling me how liberals DON'T spend more time working with or on behalf of, despots.
Dig around on that point for a while, why don'tcha?

Kingbee, it's really great that you have this huge mass of knowledge at your disposal, and the ability to express it the way you do, but man, you REALLY have too much time on your hands.
on Nov 23, 2005
Let me say this:
At the moment, our nation is involved in a great experiment, not all that disimilar to the one we began, and completed successfully, I might add, in 1776: can a nation full of people who have NEVER led themselves be trained to do so, and will they thrive? Moreover, will the terror groups, oppressive theocracies and dictatorships that surround Iraq permit that to happen?
The Bush Administration invaded Iraq, some say on false pretenses, and toppled a tyrant installed by the US in 1979 (under Carter, by the way).
That tyrant, it has since been discovered, was being aided on the sly by our "friends" in the UN and Europe, despite the sanctions THEY insisted be imposed.
We are trying, against all odds, to install in Iraq a democratic government, a government of the people, by the people and for the people....or as close as can be achieved in an Islamic nation.
In 1961, The Kennedy Administration lent its support to the oppressive and corrupt Diem regime in Vietnam against the Communist North. They backed the dictator....and Johnson continued the trend. No effort at regime change, for the better, in Vietnam was attempted or suggested.

With this in mind, tell me again how we conservatives coddle tyrants too, and, even how the war in Iraq is as bad or worse than the war in Vietnam, morally speaking.

Now, in protest of our war in Iraq, where the tender sprout of freedom and democracy is being stepped on by outsiders and meddlers who don't understand it or want it, the Left marches on Washington, and asshats like Cindy Sheehan and Tim Robbins yell their slogans and insist that we withdraw. They lend vocal (and sometimes even material) support to the insurgents. This, under any circumstances, is treason.

They chant and march in favor of the anti-Americans; they support those who choke off the very freedoms they themselves use and enjoy to end.

That's what makes me mad.
on Nov 23, 2005
Good article. I agree mostly, though as I said on the other blog, there is a difference between tolerating fascists in spite of their acts, and posing their acts as some utopian ideal. There are folks around here that post Castro, Chavez and their ilk as "fighting the good fight" against the free-market run amok.

I'm not saying making deals with the devil is the right path. I don't doubt the Presidents you mention knew that the acts of these dictators were "wrong". They chose to let someone else do a wrong in order to get their way. The contrast that I see is many Liberals seem to justify these acts as being RIGHT, and the only means of whipping a population into the socialist ideal.

It troubles me that all these little Bolivar clones are seen that way. When they see a petty dictator suspend democratic rule and start drafting new laws out of thin air, they seem to really believe that it is being done for the good of the people. The difference, at least to me, is that while people who use dictators turn a blind eye to their oppression, others seem to idealize their oppression as a means to a better society.

One would tolerate injustice with disgust as long as it doesn't threaten their own society. That's hypocritical, no doubt. I can't equate that with those who see it as a means of social change. Those folks would be more apt to tolerate it happening here. One, at least to me, is Pontius Pilate conveniently washing his hands, the other is Judas, making a positive statment about the wrong itself.
on Nov 24, 2005
on the other hand, reagan and the bushes are the three best friends oppressed peoples around the world have ever had.
---Kingbee

I was going to let this go, but what the hell.....are you trying to tell me that Reagan WASN'T the best friend the people of the oppressed Eastern Bloc ever had?

I mean...Roosevelt betrayed them all, every one of them, to Stalin, pretty much tying Truman's hands for him.
Kennedy did little, really, in the face of the Berlin Wall's building; I'll give him credit for guts during the Cuban Blockade and Missle Crisis, but that was a direct threat to US security and interests. He didn't really have much choice in the matter. Johnson folded his hands and did nothing while Soviet Tanks crushed the Prague Spring rebellion in '68.
The last Democrat President to really do anything positive to directly resist the Soviets and Communist fuckery (please pardon the french) was Truman, with the Berlin Airlift in 1948. But then, we can also put the fact that we didn't have the testicular fortitude to win in Korea in his column, too. We didn't lose, true....but we didn't win, either.

Reagan brought those people self-determination after 40 years of hardline Communist rule. All during the 80s, when he was making his speeches, stirring things up and working his magic, jailed dissident in the Communist world would communicate with each other, through Morse code tapped on their cell walls and by literally talking through their toilets, spreading what he was saying. He gave them hope, and came through for them.
Lech Walesa has said that, to the people of Poland, Reagan is a God. They wrote heroic love songs about him in Poland and Eastern Germany both.
Students in Bulgaria named Ronald Reagan and Magaret Thatcher as their heroes. Statues are erected to him in capitals across Eastern Europe.
Only people like you, king, who don't seem to mind socialist oppression, would consider him to be an enemy of the oppressed, when he was really an enemy of the OPPRESSORS....as you should be.
Bush 41 took out Manuel Noriega and then sent the military to put Iraq back in its place, kick them out of Kuwait, end any threat to Saudi Arabia, and succeeded in giving them a major ass-whooping. It was only by the power of the UN, that great leftist cesspool, that Saddam was able to stay in power. They then proceeded to make money off him, and him them. How convenient; what a happy accident.
Clinton, going along with his pals in the UN, then pretty much gave him free reign, maybe every once in a while lobbing a harmlessly-aimed missle or two at him if he got too far out of hand.
Bush 43 is trying to bring an oasis of democracy into the desert of totalitarians that is the Mideast.
And...what was the guy in Haiti...was it Haiti? Can't remember it right now...(been up since four-thirty...Happy Turkey Day, all!)...the people of Liberia were happy to see us, too.

Keep typing, king...every time you say something like the quote above, you come closer and closer to proving my point for me.
on Nov 24, 2005
I think one of the resons why it seems like leftwingers support dictators is that whenever some guy who is supported by socialists comes to power democratically, he magically becomes a dictator. Now, I'm not denying that Castro is a dictator, and I'm not saying I support Castro, but there are others. I mean, certain people on JU refer to Salvador Allende and Hugo Chavez as fascist dictators. To call them dictators is simply absurd. Had there not been the coup in Chile, there would have been an election in 1976, and there will be an election in Venezuela in 2006, and it looks like Chavez has the popular support to win it. Both were democratically elected, in Chavez's case multiple times and with margins of victory greater than most US presidential candidates get. The only Chilean dictator in recent years was Pinochet, who was loved by Nixon and Kissinger.
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