fearlessly proclaiming the truth & the other truth! voice of the teknoshamanic institute
Bend Your Country Over While I Slip You Some Cash
Published on November 23, 2005 By kingbee In Politics

(this is a response of sorts to rightwinger's strange view of the world located here: Link.  more specifically, it's a reply to this statement:

"You always seem to have a good grasp and command of some particular facts that I do not have. Admittedly, this often frustrates me because I just don't have the time to look everything up in order to give you a really good thrashing.
That's all well and good, but as for this article, I'm not seeing you addressing the actual point of the post itself. You're using this grasp of these facts I refer to in order to chip away at smaller issues you have with my line of reasoning. Fine, I understand were you're coming from, but I have yet to see from you an outright, firey dismissal of my point itself, that liberals (and in general the Left as a whole) love and suck up to dictators.
All I'm getting is you trying to cloud the issue with your "Nyah, Nyah....your side does it, too....Nyah, Nyah!"

Is this because even you can't/won't deny something of which you can't debate the truth?")

as requested, i'm gonna deal with as much of your original post as i'm able.  you've managed to combine such a mix of inaccuracies, suppositions, mischaracterizations, it's gonna require a buncha words.  rather than use up all your blog space and to ensure i'll be able to utilize some or all of this again as needed, i'm gonna do that here. 

your article  winds and wanders so much i see no way to do this but start at the beginning: 

"Why does the Left, that entity which claims to so admire things like freedom of speech, the press, thought and things like Human Rights, why do they always seem to embrace the totalitarians and tyrants? The dictatorships and despots?
Why do they, these arbiters of unfettered personal expression, always find ways to explain away their favorite tinpot Hitler's oppressive indescretions and apologize for their abuses?"

my perspective is the exact opposite.  you'll recall my list of dictators who, very sad to say, were either helped into office or helped to remain there by our government?  they didn't find sympathy nor support from the left.  their patrons weren't merely republicans (altho many of them were) nor always conservatives (i make a definite distinction between conservatives and umm rightwingers). 

all of them used--and were used by--the american right wing.

"I've seen these questions debated again and again here on JU; why do the dictatorships get a pass, while the democracies, the ones they SHOULD be supporting, always seem to come under their fire?
Like when they do things such as impose sanctions against dictators and their nations, and especially when they increase their building of arms to stand against the oppression symbolized by the totalitarians. Instead of working to free the oppressed, it seems the liberals are more than happy to let their favorite tyrants go merrily about their business unmolested."

yeah yeah yeah...nothing in the paragraph above but restating your premise and garnishing it with your opinion.  i'll pass.

"For example, as Jimmy Carter spent four years coddling the Soviets and schmoosing Fidel Castro, all the while ignoring, and even lending tacit support to, Leftist stirrings in Central Amercia and Africa, democracy lost ground the world over. We got weaker by the day.
Ronald Reagan went into office and, eight years later, against the warning cries and apologizing of Democrats in the House and Senate, and that of liberal elements among our "allies" (all of whom would have been much more than content with some level of peaceful co-existence with the USSR), had virtually ended forty years of Cold War, advancing the frontiers of democracy everywhere
."

ok.  let's start with central america.  actually let's focus on nicaragua beginning in the early 1900s.

fact: america involved itself in nicaragua's affairs by invading the country in 1909 on the very flimsy pretext that warships and a force of marines were needed to protect american lives.

fact:  communism was not a factor in any conflict involving nicaraguan combatants. 

fact:  500 revolutionaries were captured and executed by then-president zelaya.  two of them were americans. 

fact: the real reason for the invasion was twofold:

  •  the country had potential for a viable waterway between the atlantic and pacific oceans to compete with roosevelt's canal thru panama
  •  like the other central american countries, nicaragua had a lotta resources and american business wanted to exploit them as cheaply as possible.

fact:  president zelaya resigned shortly thereafter. 

fact: the marines left but returned to occupy nicaragua from 1912-1925 and again from 1926 -1933. 
 
prior to the us invasion in 1909, nicaragua had a history of political conflict between so-called conservatives and liberals.  they could as easily called themselves hatfields and mccoys.  both factions were comprised of descendants of the non-mixed european minority  (70% of the country's population is mestizo; 10% is black,  5% are non-mixed native peoples)  who also owned or controlled a great deal of the country (either by grants issued by the spanish crown prior to independence in the mid-1800s or taken by force).   essentially conservatives were monarchists who wanted to preserve their faux aristocracy...liberals wished to emulate upper class victorian brits.

fact: from 1927-1933 a guerilla army fought both the conservatives and the us occupiers under the command of general sandino (who gave his name to the sandinistas).  in 1933, after the us set up a troika, the marines withdrew.   sandino was one of the three co-rulers.  another was carlos jarquin.

fact: before they left, the us marines created an army/police organization called the guardio nacional.  its purpose was to protect american business interests.   a nicaraguan named anastasio somoza garcia   was put in charge of the guardio before the marines left.   somoza was also the third co-ruler.

fact: thanks to support from the us, somoza garcia was able to take control of the country as its sole leader (sandino was assassinated in 1934).  for the next 40 years, somoza and his family ruled nicaragua as if it were his private fiefdom. 

fact: as head of the guardio, somoza controls most government enterprises including the radio networks, railroads, post office, telegraph utility, health services.

fact:  there was a small population of german immigrants who'd established themselves in the country during the 19th century.  during wwii, somoza 'helped' the us by confiscating their land and giving it to himself.   by 1979,  the somaza family and its friends--a full 4% of the population--owned 52% of the country.

fact:  on paper, nicaragua benefitted financially by supplying the us with produce during wwii.  most of the revenue winds up in somoza's pockets.

by the end of wwii, somoza was the country's largest landowner (he owned most of nicaragua's cattle ranches and coffee plantations, all the banks, the national railroad and airlines, a cement factory, textile plants, electric power companies and urban rental property.   in 1945, he was believed to be worth $60 million usd.

wikipedia provides one reason why somoza was happily supported by american business interests:

"From 1945 to 1960, the U.S.-owned Nicaraguan Long Leaf Pine Company (NIPCO) directly paid the Somoza family millions of dollars in exchange for favorable trade terms, such as not having to re-forest clear cut areas. By 1961, NIPCO had cut all of the commercially viable coastal pines in northeast Nicaragua. Expansion of cotton plantations in the 1950s and cattle ranches in the 1960s forced peasant families from the areas they had farmed for decades. Some were forced by the National Guard to relocate into colonization projects in the rainforest. Some moved eastward into the hills, where they cleared forests in order to plant crops. Soil erosion forced them, however, to abandon their land and move deeper into the rainforest. Cattle ranchers claimed the abandoned land. Peasants and ranchers continued this movement deep into the rain forest. By the early 1970s, Nicaragua had become the United States' top beef supplier. The beef supported fast-food chains and pet food production. Six Miami, Florida meat-packing plants and the largest slaughterhouse in Nicaragua were all owned by President Anastasio Somoza Debayle.

Also in the 1950s and 1960s, 40% of all U.S. pesticide exports went to Central America. Nicaragua and its neighbors widely used compounds banned in the U.S., such as DDT, endrin, dieldrin and lindane. In a later study (1977) it was revealed that mothers living in León had 45 times more DDT in their breast milk than the World Health Organization deemed safe."

by the late 40s/early 50s, other wealthy landowners--who'd been somoza's supporters--began to worry they were next on his list. 

fact: anastasio somoza garcia was assassinated in 1956. his oldest son luis somoza debayle assumed his father's position while the younger son, anastasio somoza debayle, became head of the guardio.  luis would die within 10 years from heart trouble.  anastasio, who graduated from west point and was close to american military commanders, wound up holding all the cards.

fact: in 1972, managua--the capitol of nicarauga--was hit by a devastating earthquake.  10,000 people died and another 500,000 were left homeless.  in the aftermath, members of the guardio nacional began looting the city.  it was then discovered that somoza debayle was diverting much of the international aid contributions to his own bank accounts.

starting in the early 60s, nicaraguan rebels began organizing a revolution.  by the early 1970s, they were beginning to hurt the regime.  in 1974, somoza voided the law prohibiting him from running for another term as president.  after the election, he ordered the guardio nacional to wipe out the rebels.  in the course of doing that, they razed rural villages and alienated the nicaraguan people even more

fact: while human rights groups condemned somoza and his thugs, gerald ford continued to supply him with arms and money.

fact: in 1978, the publisher of nicaragua's opposition newspaper is assassinated, touching off open rebellion.

fact: in reprisal, somoza ordered his air force to  "bomb everything that moves until it stops moving."

finally we get to the point where you claim carter was ignoring the rise of communism in central america.

in fact, ford had tried a policy called (if you can believe how idiotic this was)  "somocismo without somoza" in hopes of maintaining us influence in the event somoza was taken out by his own people.  . 

after nearly 20 years of fighting and nearly 40 years of being terrorized by somozas who were enriched in return for allowing american interests destroy their country, there wasn't much american president could have done to convince the rebels we had their welfare at heart.

time was running out for the right wing's man in managua. 

here's wikipedia's account of the last days:

"By June 1979, the National Guard was carrying out massive atrocities in the war against the Sandinistas, bombing residential neighborhoods in Managua and killing thousands of people. At that point, the U.S. ambassador sent a cable to the White House saying it would be "ill-advised" to tell the Guard to call off the bombing, because such an action would help the Sandinistas gain power. When the National Guard executed ABC reporter Bill Stewart and graphic film of the execution was broadcast, the American public became more antipathetic to Somoza. In the end, President Jimmy Carter refused Somoza U.S. military aid, believing that the repressive nature of the government had led to popular support for the Sandinista uprising.

As Somoza's government collapsed, the U.S. helped Somoza and National Guard commanders escape, Somoza fleeing to exile in Miami. The rebels advanced on the capital victoriously. On July 19, 1979 a new government was proclaimed under a provisional junta headed by Daniel Ortega (then age 35) and including the Violeta Chamorro, Pedro's widow.

The United Nations estimated material damage from the revolutionary war to be US$480 million. The FSLN took over a nation plagued by malnutrition, disease, and pesticide contaminations. Lake Managua was considered dead because of decades of pesticide runoff, toxic chemical pollution from lakeside factories, and untreated sewage. Soil erosion and dust storms were also a problem in Nicaragua at the time due to deforestation. To tackle these crises, the FSLN created the Nicaraguan Institute of Natural Resources and the Environment.

The Sandinistas were victorious in the national election of November 4, 1984. The election was certified as free and fair by international observers allowed into the country by the Sandinistas, although certain groups, principally the Nicaraguan political opposition and the Reagan administration, disputed this, objecting to political restrictions placed on the opposition by the government. Some opposition political figures boycotted the election, although others took part either as opposition parties or in coalition with the FSLN."

fact: by the time somoza had fled, first to miami, then to paraguay where he was assassinated, 50,000 nicaraguans were dead, 120,000 had been exiled and 600,000 were homeless.  nicaragua is, today, the 2nd poorest nation in the hemisphere after haiti.

when reagan was elected, he began to wage war intended to help pro-somoza guardio members retake the government.   a number of bush's chickenhawks were actively involved in the us proxy war to put these thugs back into power.  throughout the 80s, america supported the worst kind of butchers kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people in central america. 

ask the people of central america which side supported them in their fight to free themselves from dictators...and who supported those dictators, paid them huge sums of money and supplied them with arms and advisers. 

ask yourself what gives the us the right--after directly interfering with nicaragua's sovereignity by occupying the country for 25 years and then inflicting a family of monsters on them--to assist what was truly the central american equivalent of hussein's baathist insurgents in overthowing their democratically elected government?   
 

PART 2 continuation (or something close)....

"Ronald Reagan went into office and, eight years later, against the warning cries and apologizing of Democrats in the House and Senate, and that of liberal elements among our "allies" (all of whom would have been much more than content with some level of peaceful co-existence with the USSR), had virtually ended forty years of Cold War, advancing the frontiers of democracy everywhere."

why haven't you provided some names and statements?  surely with all those congresspeople and senators crying and apologizing, there must be something you can cite.  which liberal elements among our allies were looking forward to permanent peaceful co-existence with the ussr? 

while you may  believe reagan deserves most--if not all--of the credit for the soviet union's implosion, it's still an open question and will remain one much longer than it might have thanks to the current bush's obsession with keeping presidential papers out of public view. 

in the meantime, one needs to ask what exactly did reagan do to end 40 years of cold war?  surely you're not so foolish to believe he was some sorta neo-alladin using the magic words 'tear down this wall'? 

it clearly had nothing to do with central america; his bullying endeavors there killed a lotta nicaraguans, hondurans, salvadorans and guatemalans, enriched a lotta dope dealers, military suppliers, better equipped the iranians and helped to destroy our credibility and reputation but did no real damage to the soviet union or cuba.  

"Leftwing elements the world over decried his policies as fascist, militaristic and oppressive. This, even as he funded the upgrading of Voice of America and Radio Liberty and supported and nutured the fledgling, suppressed Solidarity movement in Poland to the chagrin of the Polish government, the USSR and the "Democratic" Republic of Germany (East Germany)."

you do recall what solidarity was to begin with?  a trade union. 

perhaps you also recall how ronald reagan--who was endorsed by patco--dealt with members of that trade union?  the same way  jaruzelski.did solidarnosc...only more successfully. 

"And what of his aid to the beseiged Mujahedeen in Afghanistan? Those people, he backed against direct Soviet aggression.
Where were the cries of "militarists!" and "oppressors!" from demonstrators outside Soviet and Eastern Bloc nation's embassies"

you may find this difficult to accept (because it pretty much invalidates your whole thesis): in afghanistan, reagan simply adopted a program initiated by carter. 

here's how robert gates recalled things in an interview with the bbc last year:  Link

"Beginning early in 1979, the United States government began considering providing covert support to the potential opposition in the mujahideen in Afghanistan and, beginning in July, actually the president authorised that kind of support.

I would say though that, until the invasion, all of the support was non-lethal: in other words, once it actually began in the fall, it tended to be more in the way of medicines and supplies of communications equipment and that sort of thing.

It changed immediately after the invasion and then the president signed what we call a lethal finding which provided authority for the CIA to brief, or to provide, the mujahideen with weaponry.

The American role for the most part in this war was that of quartermaster, of logistician. We had virtually no control over ground operations or in terms of directing the mujahideen or in terms of what to attack or when or anything else. To the degree that they took any outside advice, it was probably the Pakistanis'.

Our general principle was to provide the weaponry to the groups that were doing the heaviest fighting and we had an independent view of that as well as what we heard from the Pakistanis and we worked pretty hard to direct the weaponry in that direction.

For example, the Pakistanis were generally reluctant to provide, for example, Stinger [anti-aircraft] missiles to [Ahmed Shah] Masood and the Tajiks up in the Panjsher Valley and it was under pressure from the US, from the CIA, because we knew that they were doing a great deal of the fighting and we felt that the Pakistanis were being held by some ethnic prejudices there. "

interviewed by the bbc for the same broadcast,  yuli vorontsov--former ussr ambassador to afghanistan--tells how carter drew them in...confirming both gates and brzezinski (below):

 "First of all the decision was taken in order to stop the Americans from getting involved in Afghanistan.

  It was decided to go for the surgical method of dealing with the situation and in doing so we ended up inflicting a surgical wound on ourselves

Everything that was said about helping the Afghan people and all the rest of it, well that wasn't really what it was all about.

Perhaps someone did want to help them but the main reason was to stake out the territory for ourselves and stop the Americans from getting involved.

I was Soviet ambassador in India at the time [of the invasion] and I tried afterwards to do my own personal investigation into the reasons why Soviet troops were sent in.

It was a mistake, first and foremost a mistake on the part of Soviet intelligence services. They took seriously some information - I don't know where they got it from, I couldn't establish what the sources were - but they took seriously some information that the Americans were in all seriousness planning to deploy forces in Afghanistan and open a base there.

If there had been a US base there in those days, it wouldn't have been very good for us. It would have been one more link in the chain of US military bases that in those days encircled the Soviet Union. The thought that a base might be built in the south, and that planes would be flying over and that kind of thing, was very worrying for some people.

Not for the military. They were not afraid but the politicians were. The military didn't want to invade. I discovered that later, in conversations with the general staff of the army and the KGB, with people like Marshal Akhromeyev and people like that. The military were totally against it. "

'le nouvel observateur' asked zbigniew brzezinski about the carter administration's role in afghanistan during an interview conducted in january, 1998: Link

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire"

(just as an aside, you keep asking me to disprove your unsupported assertions.  the burden of proving your claims rests on you, not me.  you're not seriously expecting me to refute your unsubstantiated personal political-mythology-presented-as-history??)

"
Comments (Page 2)
5 Pages1 2 3 4  Last
on Nov 24, 2005
"and there will be an election in Venezuela in 2006, and it looks like Chavez has the popular support to win it."


Well, when you draft your own election laws, and threaten the press, foreign election monitors, political rivals, etc., with prison time for criticising you... I guess it "streamlines" the Democratic process a bit, huh? Chavez imported "intelligence" experts from Cuba to help him defeat his opponents.

Hussein had an election a year or so before the invasion, and he won 100% of the vote. I'd say Chavez will do really well, too. You can defend the idea that a man who jails people for being "disrespectful" to him isn't a dictator? You're having to work overtime to keep those little socialist blinders from falling off, aren't you?
on Nov 24, 2005
You're having to work overtime to keep those little socialist blinders from falling off, aren't you?


Hee, hee-hee....well said, Baker.
on Nov 25, 2005

Lech Walesa has said that, to the people of Poland, Reagan is a God.

a good union man like lech would hardly consider reagan a god. 

here's how walesa apportions credit for the way things went in poland and the downfall of soviet communism (i shoulda included this in the continuation i just added to my original response but...it works just a well here.):

So if we are to talk about the truth: the pope contributed more than 50 percent to the course of the events; 30 percent would go to Solidarity and Lech Walesa and, of course, Solidarity - embracing many of you gathered here and many of the people around the world. Of course, I could have attributed much more percentage to myself. (The pope can't hear me right now. But I certainly want to be on good terms with the one up there.)

The process could have been reversed, and at this point we were lucky to have Yeltsin - not Gorbachev, but Yeltsin. Because Gorbachev, when he realized what was happening, made this attempt to reform communism. Perestroika and glasnost are nothing but a reform of communism. When I asked Gorbachev in public whether this is what he meant, he agreed. This is precisely what he admitted in the presence of President George Bush Sr., Chancellor Kohl, President Havel and others. But that was a time when Yeltsin was antagonistic with Gorbachev. As you may remember, the majority of you supported Gorbachev at that time; however, this antagonism allowed Yeltsin to prepare Russia and then withdraw her from the Soviet Union, which he actually did. I'm not sure whether he did it when sober or when drunk, but he did it. Had he not done it, I am sure that I myself, and Chancellor Kohl, would be rebuilding the Berlin Wall even faster than we had pulled it down sometime before, with strong encouragement from the United States. I am sure that would have been the outcome had Yeltsin not done what he did.
 http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

so the pope gets at least 50% of the credit...solidarnosc and the polish people get another 30%...and the rest is split among others including yeltsin & gorbachev (i think walesa overlooked afghanistan).  you may remember reagan's response when he was asked who got the credit?  he said it all belonged to gorbachev.  so i'm kinda rough averaging out like 8% each for yeltsin and gorbachev.  

what kinda god receives less than 10% of the credit?  

be sure to read the newly added response to your post...in blue type.
on Nov 25, 2005

Bush 41 took out Manuel Noriega

who was it who helped put noriega there in the first place?  like i said, no viagra needed.

on Nov 25, 2005
Bush 41 took out Manuel Noriega

who was it who helped put noriega there in the first place? like i said, no viagra needed.


You do realize this clown was on the CIA's payroll from the early 70's? It wasn't until after, when we found out what a actual jerk he was that we had to contemplate taking him out of play. Read this from wikipedia.


Rule of Panama
In October 1984, the first Presidential elections since 1972 were won by Nicolas Ardito Barletta, amid allegations of fraud, by a slim margin of 1,723 votes. Barletta was a former student of United States Secretary of State George Schultz at the University of Chicago, home of the Chicago Boys (los muchachos de Chicago).

About this time, Hugo Spadafora, a vocal critic of Noriega's who had been living abroad, accused Noriega of having connections to drug trafficking, and announced his intent to return to Panama to oppose him. He was seized from a bus at the Costa Rican border. Later, his decapitated body was found showing signs of extreme torture, and his head was found in a U.S. Postal mailing bag. His family and other groups called for an investigation into his murder, but Noriega stonewalled any attempts at an investigation. Noriega was in Paris at the time the murder took place, alleged by some to have been at the direction of his Chiriqui Province commander, Luis Cordoba. In the book "In the Time of the Tyrants", R.M. Koster relates a conversation captured on wiretap between Noriega (in Paris) and Cordoba: Cordoba - "we have the rabid dog". Noriega - "what do you do with rabid dogs?" (rabid dogs are decapitated so the brain tissues can be examined).

While in New York, a reporter asked Nicolas Barletta about the Spadafora matter and he promised an investigation. Upon his return to Panama, he was dismissed by Noriega, and replaced by his Vice President, Eric Arturo Delvalle. As a friend and former student of George Schultz, Barletta had been considered "sacrosanct" by the United States, and his dismissal signaled a marked downturn in the relations between the U.S. and Noriega.

According to statements made by former CIA Director Admiral Stansfield Turner in 1988, Noriega was on the CIA payroll since the early 1970s and he retained U.S. support until February 5, 1988 when the DEA had him indicted on federal drug charges relating to his activities before 1984. On February 25, Delvalle issued a decree, declaring that Noriega was relieved of his duties. Noriega ignored the decree, which he claims had no legal basis, and Delvalle left for the U.S. Noriega claims that on March 18, 1988, he met with U.S. State Department officials William Walker and Michael Kozak, who offered him $2 Million to go into exile in Spain. According to Noriega, he refused the offer.

Sen. John Kerry's 1998 Subcommittee on terrorism, narcotics and international operations concluded that "the saga of Panama's General Manuel Antonio Noriega represents one of the most serious foreign policy failures for the United States. Throughout the 1970's and the 1980's, Noriega was able to manipulate U.S. policy toward his country, while skillfully accumulating near-absolute power in Panama. It is clear that each U.S. government agency which had a relationship with Noriega turned a blind eye to his corruption and drug dealing, even as he was emerging as a key player on behalf of the Medellin cartel {among whom Pablo Escobar}." Manuel Noriega was let to establish "the hemisphere's first 'narcokleptocracy'".([1] p.3)

Colonel Roberto Díaz Herrera, a former member of Noriega's inner circle, broke with him and spilled info about Noriega, claiming he was behind Torrijos' murder, Spadafora's murder and many other items as well, to Panama's main opposition newspaper, La Prensa. This resulted in an immediate outcry from the public, and the formation of the "Civic Crusade." Noriega claims that the Civic Crusade was the handiwork of U.S. Embassy chargé d'affaires John Maisto, who arranged for Civic Crusade leaders to travel to the Philippines to learn the tactics of the U.S.-supported movement to overthrow Ferdinand Marcos. Supporters of Noriega referred to the Civic Crusade as a creature of the rabiblancos or "white-tails", the wealthy elite of European extraction which dominated Panamanian commerce, and which had dominated Panamanian politics before the advent of Torrijos. Noriega, like Torrijos, was dark-skinned, and claimed to represent the majority population which was poor and of mixed Spanish, Amerindian and African heritage. Noriega supporters mocked the demonstrations of the Civic Crusade as "the protest of the Mercedes Benz," deriding the wealthy ladies for banging on Teflon-coated pots and pans (unlike the cruder and louder pots and pans traditionally banged by the poor in South American protests), or sending their maids to protest for them. The American press, however, covered these demonstrations with great sympathy. Many rallies were held, with the use of white cloths as the symbol of the opposition. Noriega was always one step ahead of them however, having informants within their groups notify his police (DENI) in advance, and routinely rounded up leaders and organizers the night before rallies. Meanwhile he arranged rallies of his own, often under threat (e.g., Taxi drivers were told they had to attend a rally in support of Noriega or lose their licenses).


Link
on Nov 25, 2005
There is no point in trying to debate with the brainless neoconservatives on this site, the JU bubble protects them from the outside world. To them anyone who doesn't support constant war and occupation is a "liberal" and all "liberals" are socialists. They don't even see that it is impossible for a liberal to even be a socialist.

Let them wallow in their propaganda hole.
on Nov 25, 2005

no. he very clearly contends 'the left' loves and caters to dictators due to it's intrinsic determination to force 'big government' on the world. on the other hand, reagan and the bushes are the three best friends oppressed peoples around the world have ever had.

I am glad to hear you are not done as you have proved nothing except what I stated.  And you only Pick on Bush I and Reagan (you did nothing to demonstrate Bush II was in the same league) because of my Statement, that the McGovern Democrats decided that Mao was "alright with me".  It is clear that the cases you state did transcend parties.  You can cherry pick all you want.   But your thesis is flawed from the get go.

And while you like to think Bush I and Reagan loved dictators, we can dig up as many if not more examples of where they slayed them (took them down - not killed them) as well.  Again you do no good to yoru thesis by ignoring the dicatators taken down a peg or threee by Reagan and Bush I, and that seems to be your contention.  Yet you use statistics from Wilson and Roosevelt, hardly Republicans.

Let me know when you are finished so I can determine if you have a fair and balanced article, a left wing, but honest attack on the right, or just are plan wrong.

on Nov 25, 2005

There is no point in trying to debate with the brainless neoconservatives on this site, the JU bubble protects them from the outside world. To them anyone who doesn't support constant war and occupation is a "liberal" and all "liberals" are socialists. They don't even see that it is impossible for a liberal to even be a socialist.


And you would be MORE wrong than you could possibly imagine. I have NEVER called a liberal a socialist. I would not demean socialism like that. By the by, I have a tidbit of wisdom for you....."if you don't like what you're reading, then quit reading it"!
on Nov 25, 2005
a good union man like lech would hardly consider reagan a god.


The Solidarity Union wasn't exactly the AFL-CIO or the IBEW, king. It wasn't corrupt, and actually had the good of its members at heart, rather than simply collecting their dues every month.
And while we're at it; you seem to take a jab at Reagan here for his anti-union stance. Let me ask: how many trade unions flourished under the Communist governments as a whole?
Anyway, Walesa said that to the people of Poland, Reagan is a God. I read this quote from him in a book I read some time ago.
And before you ask me if I believe everything I read, you seem to read whole lot yourself and believe only what you pick and choose. Besides, he has the right to say this, because Reagan helped and supported the Union and worked to get him freed from jail.
You just can't bring yourself to give proper credit where it's due, can you, when the other side of the political fence is concerned.
Another self-deluding lefty. Nothing new there.

You just won't believe the eyewitness accounts, even of the very people who lived there, that someone you dislike for political reasons was very much responsible.

The Pope, okay....he was Polish, and there was a high level of national pride there for the Poles, not to mention the power of the Catholic Church...something I'm astounded that you're willing to even allude to.
The only level to which Gorbachev was responsible was that he had to cut Poland off from the Soviet ATM because they couldn't keep up with Reagan's policies that were, in fact, designed from the start to bankrupt them. And succeeded.



You know...you still have yet, on either post, mine or yours ( of course, in fairness, I haven't checked the "new blue" on your post yet, so....), to do much toward anything to disprove my contention that liberal politicans suck up to dictators.
You're so hot to prove to me that conservatives use them, too (which, I say again, I already knew in the first place...that wasn't what I said), that you can't seem to focus on anything else.
on Nov 25, 2005
~~"why haven't you provided some names and statements? surely with all those congresspeople and senators crying and apologizing, there must be something you can cite. which liberal elements among our allies were looking forward to permanent peaceful co-existence with the ussr?"~~kingbee

You know, king, I mentioned a quote from Lech Walesa, and you tried to shoot it down...would you instead accept a quote from someone who supported your position, rather than opposing it? I bet you would.

See,I just don't feel the need to alliterate historical facts that most everyone in the world either knows, remembers, or can look up themselves with the click of a mouse. Unlike you lefties, I think people are quite capable of handling things for themselves....I don't need to hand it all out to them.

But, if only for your benefit, here you go:

As we all know (except maybe for you, of course), all during the 80s, Reagan was taking a lot of flak for his "aggressive" policies on the USSR.
It came from Repubs, Dems and appeasers in the House and Senate both, the news media, and the increasingly frightened general public, in both Europe and the USA, who formed a large and vocal (not to mention Soviet-backed) peace movement.
In Europe, the heads of state shuddered at Reagan's words and actions, certain that either Soviet and Warsaw Pact troops were going to pour across their borders at any minute, or their nukes were going to impact their cities; or both. Reagan wasn't acting or talking like any other president before, and no one liked it.

There...that sums it up. I don't need to provide links or minute details, because this is history that everybody already knows. Or should, anyway.

As to Afghanistan:
Carter drew the Russians in? I don't know what revisions you're reading, but:

Yes, Carter provided millions of dollars in aid to the Afghan resistance, and may very well have been aiding them for six months prior (after all, the Afghan government was sending warm hugs and kisses to Moscow) but Reagan made a total commitment and upped the amount to 300 million a year and more as time went on, even including more and more high-tech weaponry. They also trained rebels for crossing into the USSR and pursuing operations there, so they DID have some control over the rebels, just not a whole lot. But then, they didn't need to, since the Afghans were doing well enough on their own, since they had enough help.

Carter's White House had no confidence at all that the Afghans could win, and only sent them enough aid and weapons to "harrass the Soviet troops" (a QUOTE from Zbignew Brzezinski, Carter's NSA, for those who don't know). And they only did that because the Russians had screwed Carter over and he felt hurt. After all, he'd worked for nearly four years not to appear as a threat to the Soviets, firmly adhereing to detente and all treaties and agreements, and this was how they repaid him.
What a shocker, huh? If you let people diddle your dangler, they'll do it.
Tsk, Tsk....A lesson the liberals have yet to learn.

When Reagan took office, one of the first things he did was to increase the amount of money and weapons to the Afghans, because any diversion for the Soviets was a good one, in his plan.
on Nov 25, 2005
I'm not the only one who sees it, king. Here:

Link

Link


Link

There were some sites thatsupported the left-wing, but since I didn't like them I ignored them and didn't put the links here. Kind of like you do.
on Nov 26, 2005

There is no point in trying to debate with the brainless neoconservatives on this site


And here we have it. The left supports fascist dictators because neo-conservatives are brainless.

Obviously, neo-conservatives would, if not so brainless, support these dictators as well.


anyone who doesn't support constant war and occupation is a "liberal"


And this gives us another insight. Apparently Saddam's constant murdering of Shi'ites does not constitute "constant war", but ending it does (perhaps our left-wing friend needs a history book?). And "occupation" is evil per se, no matter why it happens (I have lived in an occupied land for 20 years. I have never thought of it as "evil". I hardly noticed it.).

I think what the left need is a good history book, a reminder that Arab Shi'ites are people too, some experience with occupation, and the ability not to call "brainless" those who know more.

Assigning a low value to knowledge and education is one of the signs of a failed culture. Are the left a failed culture?
on Nov 26, 2005
i'd say the right is a failed culture. all of the facts show that republicans are 4 times more likely to be illiterate than the left wing of this country. not only that, but people on the right are usually pussies.
on Nov 26, 2005
The Solidarity Union wasn't exactly the AFL-CIO or the IBEW, king.



Remember the Teamsters??????
on Nov 28, 2005
all of the facts show that republicans are 4 times more likely to be illiterate than the left wing of this country.

but people on the right are usually pussies.
---mcdaniel

First statement:
Where did you get "all" of those "facts"? I'd really like to see some proof there. Not sure where I'd look, though...being diabetic, I don't eat a whole lot of Cracker Jacks, so I wouldn't be able to get the prize that relates to me this particular set of "facts".

Second:
Let's get you and someone like Ted Nugent together and you can call him a "pussy" to his face. We'll see then who's more the pussy.

Remember the Teamsters??????
---Dr. Guy

Ahh, yes....the Teamsters. The best union money can buy....literally.

I think what the left need is a good history book,
---leauki

They do have history books....they just reinterperet, omit or flat-out rewrite the stuff they don't like.

Kingbee:

You go way back to the beginning of the 20th Century for a lot of your facts. That's great. But see, Wilson, for example, though a Democrat, was in office back when the Democrats still believed in and cared about America, and in advancing her ideals and interests.
The last 30 years or so, especially, is when the great Liberal Flirtation with Tyrants became so prevalent.

One more thing, as an aside.....

~~"your article winds and wanders so much i see no way to do this but start at the beginning:"~~---Kingbee

I do this for my own enjoyment and for whatever others may or may not get out of reading my stuff. I'm not paid to do it; I'm not a professional writer. So, that said, if I want to wind and wander, dammit, I'll wind and wander. What's it to ya? I've been told that my writing style is very "conversational", something that was meant to be taken as a compliment.
I find it fun and not a little cathartic to vent some bile here. I find it cathartic because it's a relatively harmless way to express my frustration at the active and continuing erosion of this nation and its religious, cultural and moral base by the liberals and Democrats.
If you'll take a moment away from your incessant gathering of "facts" to notice, king, I, the rightie here, have showed more than a willingness to give proper credit where I thought it was due...I have given props to Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson and, very grudglingly, even to Carter.....all men whose basic political philosophies I find ridiculous and ultimately counter productive.
I don't seem to remember or to be able to find anything good you had to say about our conservative leadership. Therein, for the most part, lies the main difference between the left and Right in modern times, king. We don't hate the opposition way you do. we're amused, bemused and chagrined by them, but we don't hate them
Turn your head to the right sometimes, king....the left isn't all there is.
5 Pages1 2 3 4  Last