fearlessly proclaiming the truth & the other truth! voice of the teknoshamanic institute
Are You That Opposed to "Opposed" ?
Published on November 18, 2005 By kingbee In Politics

 right in the middle of last year's crusade to keep christmas from being 'banned', an already ban-concious public was alarmed and outraged by news of a public school in cupertino, california 'banning' the constitution.

as it turned out, the school hadn't banned anything (a teacher who made the claim after being disciplined by his principal for repeatedly violating a directive entered into a settlement in which the school denied any wrongdoing). 

despite a flurry of furious articles condemning an initiative recently adopted by a majority of resident voters, neither has the city of san francisco.

unless they've done revised the dictionary, 'oppose' doesn't come close to meaning the same thing as 'ban'. 

here's the relevant portion of the legal text of proposition i as it appeared on the ballot: Link

Resolved, that the people of San Francisco oppose U.S. military recruiters using public school, college and university facilities to recruit young people into the armed forces. Furthermore, San Francisco should oppose the military’s “economic draft” by investigating means by which to fund and grantscholarships for college and job training to low-income students so they are noteconomically compelled to join the military. Resolved, that the people of San Francisco oppose U.S. military recruiters using public school, college and university facilities to recruit young people into the armed forces. Furthermore, San Francisco should oppose the military’s "economic draft" by investigating means by which to fund and grant scholarships for college and job training to low-income students so they are not economically compelled to join the military.

note the absence of the word 'ban' or any of its alternates.

here's the way the city of san francisco's ballot simplification committee explained the issue and the effects of prop i: Link

THE WAY IT IS NOW:  The San Francisco Unified School District operates the City's public schools.  The District receives federal money to pay part of its operating costs.  By accepting federal money, the District must permit U.S. military recruiters access to its schools.  Colleges and universities that receive federal funds are subject to similar requirements.

THE PROPOSAL:  Proposition I is a declaration of policy that the people of San Francisco oppose the federal government's use of public schools to recruit students for service in the military.

Proposition I is also a declaration that San Francisco should consider funding scholarships for higher education and job training that could provide an alternative to military service.

A “YES” VOTE MEANS:  If you vote “yes,” you want it to be City policy to oppose military recruiters’ access to public schools and to consider funding scholarships for education and training that could provide an alternative to military service.

A “NO” VOTE MEANS:  If you vote “no,” you do not want this to be City policy

it's not even thanksgiving and you're already expending perfectly good outrage to oppose an opposing?   i hate to offer unsolicited advice but...if you don't conserve (heh) your energy, you may peak too quickly.  in that event, this could be the year athiests succeed in banning such sacred heathen claptrap as candycanes and stockings fulla coal.


Comments (Page 1)
3 Pages1 2 3 
on Nov 18, 2005
You can see how idiotic this is, right? Suggesting offering economic incentives to kids, wooing them to NOT join the military? I had zero advantages going into college, but I was able, and chose not to enter the military. This silly idea that the military is the only choice for some people is, well, silly.

These are the same rights that other colleges and job recruiters have. Why should the military function with an anchor around their neck? Sure, these are just suggestions, but the fact that they are being suggested is outrageous.

I agree that nothing has been done yet, and this is just a "statement" by the people, but it's easy enough to be outraged over this piddly-assed attitude, frankly. I think if they want to do this, great, but at the same time they shouldn't be hypocrites and shouldn't expect the military they are villifying to do a thing for them in time of need.

We'll see. I have to say, though, I find it odd that these little islands of Liberalism around America have no problems bucking the majority and going out on their own, but the rest of their time seems to be spent fighting other states that do it in conservative fashion.

San Fran citizens want to make being in the military evil, great. Other states want to question evolution in their education system, the same people raise hell. Federal power is only good when it crushes things they oppose, evidently. What makes Liberal subjective values so shiny?
on Nov 18, 2005
If the statement were really as innocuous as presented, KB, then it should have gone on to say that in so doing, the residents relinquish all claims to federal funding of education or the portion thereof tied in to military recruitment. It's sort of implied, but left hanging there for someone else to close up. Not exactly bold or honorable.

Baker, I don't see this as a necessary corollary to not expecting help from the military, as they haven't said that recruitment centers are opposed in all arenas, just in schools. I'd stand by my proposition above, that if they are willing to not receive federal scholastic funds, then they can restrict recruiters' access to schools.

I don't really like it, and wouldn't make that choice myself, but I don't live there, so it doesn't really affect me.
on Nov 18, 2005
wth is that over my comment?? Or is it just on my screen?
on Nov 18, 2005
yikes. looks like the initiatve flu is spreading (unless i'm the only one seeing that weird quoted text thing).

bs, shouldn't the first consideration be: how the hell are we supposed to discuss anything rationally when the issue can't even be framed accurately?

nothing was banned...especially hysteric misrepresentation.

bad enuff that idiots like o'reilly and his partisan employers feel free to take such liberties with the facts. but i've also seen at least 2 ju posters pick up torches and fall into lockstep behind him.

having said that, i don't see a reason why any school anywhere should be providing contact information to anyone unless expressly requested to do so by a student's parents or guardians--and even then only on a conditional basis.
on Nov 18, 2005
Baker, please disregard my above comment to you, i was reading a different post at the same time and got confused.
on Nov 18, 2005
having said that, i don't see a reason why any school anywhere should be providing contact information to anyone unless expressly requested to do so by a student's parents or guardians--and even then only on a conditional basis.


This comes down to the whole opt-in/opt-out stuff. So your information can be sent out unless you explicitly say that it can't. I don't know about you, but it seems at least a little dishonest to me.
on Nov 18, 2005

nothing was banned..

You are wrong.  Common sense was.

on Nov 18, 2005
KB yep, I agree. I'm as much to blame because i read the blogs without looking into it as you did. In the end there isn't a lot of difference, unless Californians rise up against this. It will still be used as political flame bait for a long time, and congressmen trying to make their bones will try and do something with it.

As for the contact information, well, as I said on the other blog there doesn't seem to be any stopping it short of a law. When I was in school I got approached by half a dozen colleges, and didn't request a thing from any of them. I don't know if school systems decide to share their student's information out of the need to make them go to college or what, but they most certainly do, at least in my experience.

The high schools I was familiar with all had "career day" and such, and invited businesses and higher education institutions in to the gym like a flea market for kids. I find it difficult to believe they would exclude the military.

"Baker, I don't see this as a necessary corollary to not expecting help from the military, as they haven't said that recruitment centers are opposed in all arenas, just in schools"


Take a look at kingbee's post above though. Not only is it the school thing, they are proposing economic incentives to young people who DON'T join the military. This is an organized plan to oppose recruitment, frankly. I don't see how you can stonewall their efforts to recruit, and then in good concience cry for help from them. What if they don't have enough people to get to you?
on Nov 18, 2005
MM doing da lockstep a new dance craze... do das do du dah bomp shoop shoop da ling brang... jazzin to the beat...


Oh yeh I must stop this NOW, i FORGOT this particular dance a derivative from the "MIMIC" was invented by that world famous group, the lunny loopy lefties.
on Nov 18, 2005
Ok, fair enough. I "oppose" the use of any federal funds, assets or personnel to be used in the anti US sewer known as San Francisco as long as they continue to show their disrespect to the U.S. Military, Servicemembers and Veterans.

I further "Oppose" any federal funds, assets or personnel to be used to help the whiners if a natural or man-made disaster hits the area.

As long as they "oppose" the recruiting system of our military services, why on earth should any military funds, assets or personnel be used to pull their hypocritical smelly butts out of the fire.

They don't want to have to bother defending themselves from criminals. They don't want to participate in the defense of the nation. Well, we should give them what they want and simply ignore them.
on Nov 18, 2005
yikes. looks like the initiatve flu is spreading (unless i'm the only one seeing that weird quoted text thing).

bs, shouldn't the first consideration be: how the hell are we supposed to discuss anything rationally when the issue can't even be framed accurately?

nothing was banned...especially hysteric misrepresentation.

bad enuff that idiots like o'reilly and his partisan employers feel free to take such liberties with the facts. but i've also seen at least 2 ju posters pick up torches and fall into lockstep behind him.

having said that, i don't see a reason why any school anywhere should be providing contact information to anyone unless expressly requested to do so by a student's parents or guardians--and even then only on a conditional basis


KB, I've said this on another thread but I'll say it again here. You "do" realize of course that it's against "FEDERAL LAW" for SF to deny military recruiters access to school grounds?



The measure will have no effect on military recruiters as they are allowed on school grounds under federal law, according to U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Ellen Krenke, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Department of Defense.
on Nov 18, 2005
Reply By: drmilerPosted: Friday, November 18, 2005


You "do" realize of course that it's against "FEDERAL LAW" for SF to deny military recruiters access to school grounds?


since when did a piddly thing like the constitution or LAW stop the lefties from doing what they want?
on Nov 18, 2005
As for the contact information, well, as I said on the other blog there doesn't seem to be any stopping it short of a law. When I was in school I got approached by half a dozen colleges, and didn't request a thing from any of them. I don't know if school systems decide to share their student's information out of the need to make them go to college or what, but they most certainly do, at least in my experience.


altho i can't imagine what it might be, there's prolly a reason why not only was i never contacted by any colleges, but several didn't respond to my inquiries.

more to the point, if i'm reading it correctly, nclb requires schools to release names, addresses, and phone numbers of high school juniors and seniors to "military recruiters," "post secondary educational institutions," and "prospective employers." (20 U.S.C. § 7908)

this has to be a pain in the ass for schools...and i don't see any benefit for students or their families. clearly it makes things easier for the military. i doubt it's gonna be utilized much by any reputable 'post secondary educational institutions' or 'prospective employers.'

i can understand why universities were aggressively trying to sign you up. i'd be very surprised if everyone in your class was approached by the same schools--as one would reasonably expect under the provisions of nclb.

my guess is the military may be the least predatory of all organizations entitled to get their hands on those lists.


btw, i do recall my very first 'career day' in 9th grade very clearly. at the end of the day (prolly killing time), my homeroom teacher was tossing out questions and selecting responders at random. she asked me if the experience had helped me reach any decisions and i replied that i no was longer seriously considering work as a career.
on Nov 18, 2005
So your information can be sent out unless you explicitly say that it can't. I don't know about you, but it seems at least a little dishonest to me.


please expand on this? i must be missing something (a brain?) cuz i'm not at all sure who you feel is being dishonest.
on Nov 18, 2005
Common sense was.


appears to be a personal problem. if i were you, i'd file an appeal.
3 Pages1 2 3