fearlessly proclaiming the truth & the other truth! voice of the teknoshamanic institute

the earth was created in 6 days 6000 years ago and the grand canyon proves god sent a great flood to cleanse the earth of  ''the wickedness of man' according to a book entitled Grand Canyon: A Different View currently offered for sale to tourists who visit  grand canyon national park's six stores.  written by tom vail who describes how--while working as a rafting guide in the canyon in 1994, ''telling folks that the exquisite and varied rock layers came about through completely natural processes,'' --one of his female passengers helped him see the light.  shortly thereafter vail made ''a conscious decision to believe in the Gospel," married the woman and now operates Canyon Ministries from which the pair guide creationist canyon tours.

this is just one example of a concerted effort by dominionists to impose a morally correct view (a new and improved version of political correctness...now with the added righteous power of god!) on america by expending both their substantial political and financial capital to pressure our government into remaking itself in their image and to their liking.

as 'public  employees for environmental responsibility' (peer) reported in 2003,  " NPS Deputy Director Donald Murphy, ordered the Grand Canyon National Park to return three bronze plaques bearing biblical verses to public viewing areas on the Canyon’s South Rim. Murphy overruled the park superintendent who had directed the plaques’ removal based on legal advice from the Interior Department that the religious displays violated the First Amendment. In a letter to the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary, the group sponsoring the plaques, Murphy apologized for “any intrusion resulting from” the temporary removal of the plaques quoting Psalms 68:4, 66:4 and 104:24 and pledged “further legal analysis and policy review” before any new action is taken."

the group's executive director, jeff ruch, concluded at that time, “The Park Service leadership now caters exclusively to conservative Christian fundamentalist groups. The Bush Administration appears to be sponsoring a program of Faith-Based Parks.”

sound ridiculous? not to 'a christian ministry in  the national parks' --funded by donations from the coors family's castle rock foundation (castle rock also pays dues for the 7 coors who belong to the influential republican advisory group ncf  )--which places evangelists in paying seasonal jobs within the national parks service where they work as bellhops, guides, wranglers, etc. at national parks throughout the country.  in addition to their park services duties, the acmnp expects them to conduct services and 'relate' to the public in ways that further the cause.  in other words, these nominally public employees have a dual mission, so to speak.  one that requires them to actively proselytize park visitors.

abraham lincoln is apparently the next american to be enlisted in the dominionist cause.  well, not abe the person exactly...just his memorial, which is administered by the national parks service.  according to a press release on the traditional values coalition's website dated 11/18/2004, their battle to revise a videotape loop seen by tourists that portrays the memorial's role in modern american history is already won:

TVC Chairman Rev. Louis P. Sheldon was interviewed for ABC World News Tonight this week on the controversy surrounding the Lincoln Memorial video that is shown to millions of tourists each year in Washington, DC.

TVC gained national attention back in 2003 when it requested an investigation into the content of a short Lincoln Memorial video that portrayed abortion and homosexual marchers and implied that President Abraham Lincoln would have supported these causes.

TVC’s call for a revision of the video to be more balanced was heeded by the National Park Service. The new video, which has not yet been released, will include shots of pro-lifers and Christians in Promise Keeper events on the Washington Mall.

Rev. Sheldon says that the old video provided a “very unbalanced view” of marches in Washington, DC. “The video featured abortionists and homosexual marches, plus rightly included Dr. Martin Luther King’s famous March on Washington, but no right-to-life rallies or Promise Keepers marches.”

(he's gotta point...how the hell did the creators of the current tape manage to overlook those promise keeper marches that helped to nearly eliminate divorce in america??)

it's bad enough that moral correctness is being permitted to encroach upon and infiltrate america's public--and therefore secular--national parks legacy but the most aggravating aspect is this: the bush administration has consistently cut funding to maintain our national parks and actively intervened to oppose measures that would reduce environmental damage inflicted by users.

if there's a bright spot here, its that vail's book of fairytales doesn't actually claim yogi and booboo feasted on pic-a-nic baskets as the ark cruised thru jellystone.

"
Comments (Page 1)
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on Nov 23, 2004

Why is your beliefs any more valid than theirs?  So what if a kook wants to guide people of similar faithdown the colorado?  It is a free country.  And putting the stuff about 20th century problems into a video on Lincoln is just plain stupid, not conspiratorial. (both the Right to life and Pro Abortion crap).

This is tenuos and shaky.  You imply that if people dont believe as you do, then they should have no voice in anything.  Yet where is your outrage when they show things irrelevant to the subject matter that agrees with your opinions?  This just smacks of paranoia and sour grapes.

on Nov 23, 2004

So what if a kook wants to guide people of similar faithdown the colorado?

either i wasnt sufficiently clear or you missed the part about the kook's book being sold in the six stores at grand canyon national park.  surely youve at least walked into this type of store somewhere along the line yourself?  park vistors patronize them to purchase souvenirs, keepsakes and educational materials among other things.  it's not a question of beliefs; it's a case of patent nonsense being given the appearance of official approval by the very fact of its being offered for sale in those six stores.  the earth wasnt created in six days.  nor is the earth only 6000 years old.  im sure any able geologist can--without even broaching the evolution/creationism divide--ably debunk the notion that the grand canyon was created by a single flood.

if vail can con his clients to buy his silly book at his facility (or even if he brings a carton with him) that's fine.  it's when he's permitted to disseminate his opinion in a venue that gives it the appearance of official approval by the national parks service, that i have a problem.

it's not even a question of believing as i do.   i personally believe the grand canyon was created by fred flintstone but no government agency is going to validate my belief...nor should they validate his.

on Nov 23, 2004
nevermind--I had a post which I had wanted to delete but could only edit. In short, I agree with you, kingbee. More to follow when I'm feeling more diplomatic
on Nov 23, 2004
the kook's book being sold in the six stores at grand canyon national park.


appearance of official approval by the very fact of its being offered for sale in those six stores.


And if no one bought the book and shared the belief, it would be pulled from the store. Ever heard of free speech. That book in the book store hurts no one. I am sure there are other books on the subject of the Grand Canyon's origins that would refute the aforementioned book.

For those who do not see the problem of evengelicals promoting their literature at a place of reputable scientific study and history, I'm sure you would have no problem with Hare Krishnas distributing theirs as well, right?


Nope! No problem at all. I am a Christian, not evangelical, but believe in creation.

on Nov 23, 2004
Grreaat point there iamheather. True, you can write and sell almost anything. The problem with both sides of the issues is indicative of the war on fundamentalism and modernity. The extremes are to be avoided. I don't believe that the Noahian flood covered the whole earth or that the earth was created 6,000 years ago. BTW, the bible never says the earth was created 6,000 years ago. The Noahian Flood is a didatic story and the flood likely limited to the known world at the time. Nonetheless, it still has a explicit moral teaching for the betterment of mankind.

That being said, there is also certainly good reason to believe in Creationism in one form or another. The bible was not intended to be a a literal science text book, it is intended to convey moral instruction and lessons for mankind. The Atheist likes to read the bible like a fundamentalist literalist, and then condemn the fundamentalist literalist with it. They make themselves as guilty as the Christian fundamentalist they condemn by wearing the same clothing and acting in the same manner.

Good moral teaching has a place in our society, it deserves a better place than the venom that spews from the mouth of the consciences are constantly trying to stop Christianity , first and next it will be any literature emphasising moraliity . Next, they will want to ban Grimm's Fairytales and Charles Dickens Christmas stories and complaining about them interfering the Hare Krishnas.
on Nov 23, 2004

And if no one bought the book and shared the belief, it would be pulled from the store. Ever heard of free speech. That book in the book store hurts no one. I am sure there are other books on the subject of the Grand Canyon's origins that would refute the aforementioned book.

obviously im not making this clear enough.  the stores in question operate under the authority of the national parks service--which is an agency of the federal government and thereby enjoined by the constitution against officially advocating or promoting any specific religious doctrine.  equally importantly, educational materials offered for sale within the park--by that fact itself--can reasonably be expected by purchasers to contain accurate up-to-date information. 

im not saying the vails should be restrained from selling their book; it should not be sold through the grand canyon national park's facitilities. it is being sold there now as a consequence of private religious groups being assisted by officials who exerted improper influence on the national parks service.  would you approve of public schools offering courses in sorcery? the department of agriculture distributing booklets on the benefits of santaria sacrifices?   

on Nov 23, 2004

Good moral teaching has a place in our society, it deserves a better place than the venom that spews from the mouth of the consciences are constantly trying to stop Christianity , first and next it will be any literature emphasising moraliity . Next, they will want to ban Grimm's Fairytales and Charles Dickens Christmas stories and complaining about them interfering the Hare Krishnas.

this is hardly a case of moral teaching.  it is a question of unsubstantiated and very implausible conjecture resulting from an untrained individual's attempt to impose his personal and almost certainly flawed understanding or interpretation of scripture on the reality of geologic phenomena. reality is not altered by opinion. further, id argue it is less than moral to exploit the offices of government to advance one's spiritual beliefs in violation of the spirit as well as the letter of the constitution those officials have sworn to uphold

on Nov 23, 2004
"..trying to stop Christianity.."
"The problem with both sides of the issues is indicative of the war on fundamentalism and modernity."



Christianity will not be "stopped" anytime soon. It's in the very fabric that makes up our culture and, like everything else in the world, it progressives with the world as the world has progressed with Christianity. There's no stopping it. There is no "war on fundamentalism." There is a simply an effort to maintain the official acknowledged separation of the powers of Church from the powers of State as having been bluntly and (obviously to this day) ambitiously, stated in the Constitution.

The park is operated by the federal government. If there was a church nearby off the grounds that distributed this lit, I would have no problem. But it's not. What is going on is that Evengelists are trying to defy a VERY wise part of the founding document of our country (and have the money and influence --not Christian-values--to succeed), and I have a problem with that.

Also, I find it sadly ironic that Evengelists are trying to promote creationism on literal grounds that geologists (as in people who devote their lives to studying the origin, history, and structure of the earth) pretty much have down pat.
on Nov 23, 2004
Kingbee wrote: "this is hardly a case of moral teaching. it is a question of unsubstantiated and very implausible conjecture resulting from an untrained individual's attempt to impose his personal and almost certainly flawed understanding or interpretation of scripture on the reality of geologic phenomena. reality is not altered by opinion."

I assume you mean collective opinion, yours as much as mine. Any opinion regarding the earth's creation is conjecture. And since freedom of speech allows for all types of opinions, Creationism is as worthy as any other. Also, I would remind you that there is no such spirit or letter of the constituion of the United States that prevents the sellling of religious books. The Constitution forbids the establishment of one religion by the Govenment. It makes no statement in regard to selling of religious books, muchless a book that promotes Creationism. Fox in the Snow makes the same mistake. I would also add to reply to Fox, that giving an opinion in the form of book is not "imposing his personal beliefs" . Books on Atheism are written everyday, and they like the others are not labeld "imposing personal beliefs on others" Otherwise, they and you would be as guilty as he. I believe everyman can and should, and is capable of making up his own mind rather on the subject , don't you?

Geologist have a speculation and theory regarding origin, history and structure of the earth and it's certainly not "down pat" . It's in a constant state of flux and continually revised due to the ever expanding knowledge of our universe. Wholesale changes, theories are being revised due to some recent discoveries. The vast majority of the Geologist will also tell you that none of their theories exclude a Creator, whether they believe in one or not. I would also add, that Christianity is not the ONLY religion that holds to a Creation/Creator belief. BTW: If you should go to the Grand Canyon, I've been there a number of times, all the park signs, scores of them, promote evolution, not creationism. According to your thinking, that would be the government "imposing its beliefs on me" and should be banned in your world. Also, evolution is taught by Christian Churches and religionist as well as Creationism.
on Nov 23, 2004

how exactly did creationism get involved in this?  the book in question (to the best of my knowledge) has nothing to do with creationism vs evolution (as i pointed out in my post).  vail is claiming to have determined the grand canyon was created by the great flood.  by your standard, i could as easily be correct (in fact, ill concede that i am) in asserting it is the site of the now-defunct flintrock open pit gravel mine where fred and barney toiled away their lives.


while the constitution doesnt forbid the selling of religious books per se, it does proscribe government involvement in the promotion of any specific religious belief.   that is the issue here.  vail can do whatever he feels worthwhile to market his book within the boundaries of the law.  selling his books on federal land managed by a federal agency in a manner which would lead a visitor to the park to reasonably arrive at the conclusion this book has the approval of the national parks service oversteps those boundaries.  

on Nov 23, 2004
I pleased that you agreed that Constitution in no way forbids the promoting of religion. The Constitution doesn't even forbid promoting religion or the selling of religions books, no "per se" about. . The Constitution forbids the Government from "establishment" of a government run religion. It is entirely open to promote religion, religious books and thinking. It just can't establish a government run religion.

The geological studies on the Grand Canyon all show that was formed from a great flood. It is also very obvious just from looking at the Canyon. The chasm is so great in depth and width, it is very, very obvious that it took enormous amounts of water to form a fissure of that breadth.
on Nov 23, 2004
while the constitution doesnt forbid the selling of religious books per se, it does proscribe government involvement in the promotion of any specific religious belief. that is the issue here. vail can do whatever he feels worthwhile to market his book within the boundaries of the law. selling his books on federal land managed by a federal agency in a manner which would lead a visitor to the park to reasonably arrive at the conclusion this book has the approval of the national parks service oversteps those boundaries.


Are you advocating censorship? I'm sure you would never do that. How exactly is the government "promoting" a religious belief my offering this book in their gift shop? If they have a book alleging that the Grand Canyon was created by a meteor shower or an alien space ship landing on the earth, are they "promoting" that belief, also? Of course not! Being this is a country of many different people with vastly differing views, why would the national park not present all those views to its visitors? Is this the only book the gift shop sells on the Grand Canyon? I know this is not true.

Is it that you do not trust people to read a book like this, which you claim is so blatantly wrong, and decide it is hogwash? Is the American public that inept and ignorant? What have you to fear of this book?
on Nov 23, 2004
how exactly did creationism get involved in this?


My bad. Carry on.
on Nov 23, 2004

The Constitution forbids the Government from "establishment" of a government run religion. It is entirely open to promote religion, religious books and thinking. It just can't establish a government run religion.

only if you toss out jefferson's assertion of a "wall of separation between church and state" in his letter to the danbury baptists, madison's concurrance in 1819 that both religion and government benefited "by the total separation of the church and state" and the supreme court's consistent determination that jefferson's position (1879 reynolds v. us)  "may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the  amendment" and (1947 everson v. board of ed, justice black) "in the words of jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church and state."

 

on Nov 23, 2004

The geological studies on the Grand Canyon all show that was formed from a great flood. It is also very obvious just from looking at the Canyon. The chasm is so great in depth and width, it is very, very obvious that it took enormous amounts of water to form a fissure of that breadth.

that's a clever mischaracterization.  it took enormous amounts of water but not a great flood.  a very thorough analysis of both conventional and young-earth creationist thinking can be found here. http://my.erinet.com/~jwoolf/gc_intro.html  (itll keep you outta trouble for at least an hour depending upon how quickly you read and your familiarity with geology)

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