fearlessly proclaiming the truth & the other truth! voice of the teknoshamanic institute
The Most Offensive Defence is A Spun Offence.
Published on June 8, 2005 By kingbee In Politics

gulag.

amazing that one small word can be so powerful or evoke such a horrific response. 

i first became familiar with the concept while reading 'one day in the life of ivan denisovich' by alexander solzhenitsyn when i was still in grade school (clearly my recreational reading tastes were a bit precocious as well as extreme).  for a week during the summer between 7th and 8th grade, i shivered in the heat and humidity of late july in da motah city as ivan and i--convict slave laborers--endured the frozen extremes of siberia and the brutally inhumane excesses of a pitiless totalitarian state that had nullified our lives.

why were we there?  for how long would we remain?  there was no way of knowing.  worst of all, no one--least of all our former families and friends-- except those who kept us here and our fellow slaves knew for sure we even existed. 

amnesty international's international report, released on may 25, 2005, characterizes as a gulag the facility at guantanamo, cuba where the us holds some of  those captured in its war on terrorism.   not surprisingly, the current administration refutes that designation.  according to bush, it's an obvious case of disassembly (which he defines as lying).

not surprisingly, there are more than a few ju bloggers who are outraged by the amnesty international report.  

the war on terror is an honorable endeavor being waged against those who hate us and are willing to go to any length to destroy us because--as our president has proclaimed--they hate freedom.

finally  amnesty international has revealed its true agenda  and shown it hates us and our freedom as well.

how could we have been so foolish as to believe that an organization which has, for years, despised  the freedom enjoyed in north korea, china, vietnam, algeria, myanmar,  the maldives, turkey, morroco, today's russia, the former soviet union and its eastern european colonies, chile (under pinochet), argentina, cuba, the sudan and dozens of other bastion of freedom countries wouldn't eventually add us to the list.? 

fortunately we have plenty of examples on which to base our response---thanks to those nations for which this whole thing is old hat.

before we go there, let's clear something up.  guantanamo isn't a network of slave labor camps in the wilds of siberia into which millions of our own citizens disappear, most never to return.  hell, it's not even cold there.

on the other hand, perhaps amnesty international meant it figuratively.  after all, there are 500 people who've been locked up in gitmo for nearly 3 years without ever having been charged with any crime.  as far as they know, it could be another 20 years before they'll have a day in court.  their families have no clue as to their status.  no one except the force that's detaining them knows whether they're well or ill or alive.

nawwww.  that couldn't be it.

ai has a lotta nerve.  after all, didn't the president pledge in his 2nd inaugural address that the us was dedicated to spreading democracy and freedom.  aren't we spending billions and putting our military into harm's way to do just that in iraq?  if you can't trust our government, who can you trust?  

(who better to answer that question than those of you who join heston in announcing that they'll have to pry your gun outta your cold dead hands.  but then again, amnesty international doesn't own any guns huh?)

so anyway we're busy spreading freedom and democracy  not only by deed but by example--certainly there's no better advertisement than good example--and all amnesty international can do is criticize us.

no wonder cheney took offense and won't take ai seriously.  he's a flexible guy and just because he, the president and rumsfeld used to take them seriously enough to cite them multiple times in white house position papers  on hussein's iraq  Link  (In August 2001 Amnesty International released a report entitled Iraq -- Systematic Torture of Political Prisoners, which detailed the systematic and routine use of torture against suspected political opponents and, occasionally, other prisoners. Amnesty International also reports "Detainees have also been threatened with bringing in a female relative, especially the wife or the mother, and raping her in front of the detainee. Some of these threats have been carried out." ) , don't mean he cant change his mind.  or maybe his mind is the same but amnesty international is different. ( i can hear him singing along with joe walsh...'everybody's so different, i'm still the same.' )

fact is, amnesty international provided a good deal of the source material used by bush, cheney and rumsfeld to justify their planned invasion of iraq.  so having ai slam em now must really not bother them a bit because the organization just doesn't have any credibility

not that everything ai had to say about america was bad.  they approved the supreme court ruling that requires a court hearing for prisoners of the 'war on terror'.   big deal huh?

the final straw has to be ai's outrageous demands that the us stop secretly holding prisoners incommunicado (ghost prisoners), permit the international red cross access to all prisoners, ensure due process for all prisoners, implement an independent investigation of all allegations of torture and prosecute all who cause detainees to be brutalized or tortured while in the custody of the us. 

if that sounds familiar, it's probably cuz those damn amnesty international freedom-haters stole it directly from past presidents who demanded the soviet union do the same thing at their gulags.

if all of this pisses you off, you're not alone.

i'm pissed off too.  pissed off really badly that my country has engaged in the type of thing for which we used to condemn rogue states like north korea and the soviet union.   pissed off that my president says he wants to promote democracy and freedom throughout the world while eroding the essentials of democracy and freedom at home. pissed off that such blatant hypocrisy is ignored and--even worse--approved by those who claim to be the most stalwart advocates of the rule of law and our constitution.

one final note: in another thread, one commentor said he was dismayed because amnesty international had diminished the horror of the gulag in its report.  after all, there's no comparison.   this same commentor claims to be a student of history.  not a very good student in my opinion or he'd remember that gulags--like rome--aren't built in a day.  once you lay the first stone, the next one is a little easier. 


Comments (Page 8)
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on Jun 10, 2005
, the liberals were always taking his quotes about the Scopes Monkey Trial and posting them out of context. It really infuriated him.

He warned me to never trust a liberal when it comes to posting quotes. I guess he was right.


there are few sights more heartwrenching than a monkey that's been allowed to chug a whole bottle of scope.
on Jun 10, 2005
gotta hit ya with an insightful for that one ov


Cheers KB. It was confirming something that I was thinking all the way through this thread but was finding hard to believe, seeing as we were having a debate about it.

A debate, as I see it, is to offer up opposing views and opinions and take both into consideration before deciding your viewpoint, not coming out fighting, insulting, labelling and not listening
on Jun 10, 2005
I assure you, if I were needed to get the information out of a terrorist that would save American lives, I would literally stop at nothing to do so. I say that without complete conviction and with no shame.


i think you mean WITH conviction but...

so you'd bet our lives stopping at nothing is gonna get truth from a guy who sees you as his ticket to 40 virgins in paradise?
on Jun 10, 2005
Do you believe that we should become the monster we are fighting? Does America have no standards?


Are we so zealous and revenge-seeking that we would adopt an "anything goes" attitude toward our actions in the middle east


This is not any party platform, and I could care less what Democratic talking heads or Republican talking heads have to say about it. This is what I believe is right and appropriate for a moral and just nation such as ours


dead solid perfect mz w!
on Jun 10, 2005
so you'd bet our lives stopping at nothing is gonna get truth from a guy who sees you as his ticket to 40 virgins in paradise?


40? I think your radical is being short changed KB. 70 seems to be the going rate.

There does seem to be an unhealthy obsession with this whole "virgins" area
on Jun 10, 2005
70 seems to be the going rate.


40...70...hell why not round it up to the nearest power of 10. like this is gonna happen.

anyone who's hadda deal with more than 1 virgin in a lifetime and still wants more deserves em.
on Jun 10, 2005
Kripes Kingbee. Your hostilitiy towards Amnesty is remarkable. To attack a group that has so vociferously defended human rights is despicable and exposes your blind allegience to the Bush administration. You should be ashamed. Perhaps you 've not researched the issues enough. An independent organization simply confirms the reports trickling through the media about human rights abuses and you leap to defend those who are either incompetent or hold firm diseregard human rights and you offer knee jerk defense to those doing wrong.

The U.S. has lost it's moral authority and you defend fascism. Perhaps, before you die, you will repent..


more than a full year of duplicity, obfuscation and deceptive chicanery falls to ashes in a single moment.

i always knew this would happen and i tried to stop but...

and now it's too late.

i've been exposed.
on Jun 10, 2005
the best we can hope for is to keep tabs on them now we know who they are. it's really not a lot different than law enforcement vs crime families. gang members are released from incarceration alla time. the cops know they're gonna go back to their crime careers.


While I applaud you for finally coming up with an answer, no matter how much I disagree with you, at least you gave us your solution. Just let them all go and keep tabs on them. Well ya know kingbee, the last I checked, we have yet to suspect a mafia capo of flying a jet into a civilian structure. Unless I missed the special report on the news, I don't think the mafia has a goal of exterminating every single Zionist, infidel, pig, American.

I guess that's been my point all along when I say that Bush is making the hard decisions. Yes, he is denying people due process of basic freedoms. But they are not political prisoners, they are not even being persecuted for their religion unless you want to stretch it out to say that their version of their religion calls for them to kill any non-believer.


as a general truism, brains and no balls trumps balls and no brains. i'd suggest you look over your shoulder next time you pass a mirror if you think you're any more secure today than you were on september 10, 2001.


So I guess since 9/11 and our counter attack; now they want me even deader? Is that it? These 19 men were not acting alone. We have not riled up the rest of the Muslim world by trying to destroy terrorism at the source. I vividly recall seeing videos of men, women and children dancing in the streets when they saw the blow that we were struck by. I believe we were already thoroughly hated well before we took up arms. Are they using Koran abuse and allegations of abuse at Gitmo as a rallying cry? Yes. But frankly, if it not that, it would be something else.

on Jun 10, 2005
A debate, as I see it, is to offer up opposing views and opinions and take both into consideration before deciding your viewpoint, not coming out fighting, insulting, labelling and not listening


Oh I'm listening Vune. I have my ears on full alert waiting to hear an answer to this problem rather than constant criticism of our current policies.

I mean kingbee seems to think that if we can't convict them of a crime under our criminal justice system then we should just let them go and keep tabs on them (yes, a country that can't find one man after nearly four years is going to keep tabs on 540 released detainees). Of course if we were to do that then you guys would probably be crying about their loss of privacy and say that any evidence we secured while "keeping tabs" on them would be inadmissable in court. But hey, at least kingbee has a solution.

How bout you Vune, rather than complaining about my firm stance, why not offer up your own. I'm not critizing your solution, only your lack of one while you continue to criticize our current policy. Put yourself in the shoes of the president. How would you protect your citizens from radical terrorists? Seriously, I would love to hear other solutions, maybe you can convince me that there is a better way.
on Jun 10, 2005

(I will probably be labelled a terrorist)


Not a terrorist, just a butthead.
on Jun 10, 2005
(I will probably be labelled a terrorist)


Too late for that title Vune, Tex already gave me that one.
on Jun 10, 2005
easier and safer doesn't come with a guarantee. and it aint free. if i gotta be like our enemies, id rather not be at all.


Look kingbee, I make analogies to some of my very conservative friends (and I consider myself to be conservative), that I am against religion in the government for fear of us being like the Arab world one day. Even as a conservative, I am deathly afraid of a religous state and I make comparisons to some of the archaic practices in the Muslim states in the Arab world. I believe in the "slippery slope" theory, so I am with you on making analogies. This is why I am all for The Pledge of Allegiance in the classroom in my heart, but I know that it is probably one foot over the slippery slope to a religious state and I stand behind the efforts of ....( I don't know how to label them, Vune seems to think Liberal is a four letter word) but I'll just leave it as the anti chruch state guys.

But, I really believe you are stretching it to say that if we deny due process to a guy who would walk away from our criminal justice system, we are "like our enemies". I have five children and one on the way. I wish we lived in a world free of war and killing and torture. I would do anything so that my children would not have to know the horror of war or terrorist attacks or to know that there are people that want them dead because they don't believe in someone's sick, twisted interpretation of a religion. If by Tex's definition, I am a monster because of the fact that I would be willing to inflict any amount of physical pain on some radical terrorist in order to extract information to save lives or that I would be willing to throw that same radical terrorist in a cage and throw away the key so that he never has the chance to strap on a bomb or get behind the stick of plane; then so be it. I am a monster.

Simply put, I am not satisfied that my children are properly protected by simply letting a terrorist walk away from detention and "keeping tabs" on him because he cannot be convicted under our criminal justice system.
on Jun 10, 2005
the best we can hope for is to keep tabs on them now we know who they are.


I found a bit of info here from that bastion of conservatism "PBS Frontline".

Link

According to these guys, we have authorized the destruction of Bin Laden's network by any and all means necessary since the spring of 1996; an order which Clinton signed. This serves two points; first I like the any and all means part, but even more, it seems we have officially been keeping tabs on Bin Laden since the Spring of 1996, yet he was able to destroy two skyscrapers, part of pentagon and take a swipe at the White House all while killing everyone aboard four airliners.

Gee, it's a good thing we were keeping tabs on him, otherwise he might have gotten five buildings.

on Jun 10, 2005
Link

Oh I like this, PBS is critizing the government for not acting on warnings about the bombings of the embassies in 1998 as well as the 9/11 attacks. Man the more I read about it, the more I realize how effective this "keeping tabs" stuff is. I mean what does PBS want, should we "preemptively" arrest a terrorist? Where would we hold him? For how long? Sounds kinda Gitmo-ish to me.
on Jun 10, 2005
i'd suggest you look over your shoulder next time you pass a mirror if you think you're any more secure today than you were on september 10, 2001.


If you felt safe before 9/11 it was a misguided notion. Here's a quick history lesson of terrorists attacks on US citizens by Muslim radicals PRIOR to 9/11:


Ambassador to Sudan Assassinated, March 2, 1973: U.S. Ambassador to Sudan Cleo A. Noel and other diplomats were assassinated at the Saudi Arabian Embassy in Khartoum by members of the Black September organization.

Attack and Hijacking at the Rome Airport, December 17, 1973: Five terrorists pulled weapons from their luggage in the terminal lounge at the Rome airport, killing two persons. They then attacked a Pan American 707 bound for Beirut and Tehran, destroying it with incendiary grenades and killing 29 persons, including 4 senior Moroccan officials and 14 American employees of ARAMCO. They then herded 5 Italian hostages into a Lufthansa airliner and killed an Italian customs agent as he tried to escape, after which they forced the pilot to fly to Beirut. After Lebanese authorities refused to let the plane land, it landed in Athens, where the terrorists demanded the release of 2 Arab terrorists. In order to make Greek authorities comply with their demands, the terrorists killed a hostage and threw his body onto the tarmac. The plane then flew to Damascus, where it stopped for two hours to obtain fuel and food. It then flew to Kuwait, where the terrorists released their hostages in return for passage to an unknown destination. The Palestine Liberation Organization disavowed the attack, and no group claimed responsibility for it.

Ambassador to Afghanistan Assassinated, February 14, 1979: Four Afghans kidnapped U.S. Ambassador Adolph Dubs in Kabul and demanded the release of various "religious figures." Dubs was killed, along with four alleged terrorists, when Afghan police stormed the hotel room where he was being held.

Iran Hostage Crisis, November 4, 1979: After President Carter agreed to admit the Shah of Iran into the US, Iranian radicals seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and took 66 American diplomats hostage. Thirteen hostages were soon released, but the remaining 53 were held until their release on January 20, 1981.

Bombing of U.S. Embassy in Beirut, April 18, 1983: Sixty-three people, including the CIA’s Middle East director, were killed and 120 were injured in a 400-pound suicide truck-bomb attack on the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Naval Officer Assassinated in El Salvador, May 25, 1983: A U.S. Navy officer was assassinated by the Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front.

Bombing of Marine Barracks, Beirut, October 23, 1983: Simultaneous suicide truck-bomb attacks were made on American and French compounds in Beirut, Lebanon. A 12,000-pound bomb destroyed the U.S. compound, killing 242 Americans, while 58 French troops were killed when a 400-pound device destroyed a French base. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Kidnapping of Embassy Official, March 16, 1984: The Islamic Jihad kidnapped and later murdered Political Officer William Buckley in Beirut, Lebanon. Other U.S. citizens not connected to the U.S. government were seized over a succeeding two-year period.

Restaurant Bombing in Spain, April 12, 1984: Eighteen U.S. servicemen were killed and 83 people were injured in a bomb attack on a restaurant near a U.S. Air Force Base in Torrejon, Spain.

TWA Hijacking, June 14, 1985: A Trans-World Airlines flight was hijacked en route to Rome from Athens by two Lebanese Hizballah terrorists and forced to fly to Beirut. The eight crew members and 145 passengers were held for seventeen days, during which one American hostage, a U.S. Navy sailor, was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the aircraft was returned to Beirut after Israel released 435 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners.

Attack on a Restaurant in El Salvador, June 19, 1985: Members of the FMLN (Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front) fired on a restaurant in the Zona Rosa district of San Salvador, killing four Marine Security Guards assigned to the U.S. Embassy and nine Salvadorean civilians.

Achille Lauro Hijacking, October 7, 1985: Four Palestinian Liberation Front terrorists seized the Italian cruise liner in the eastern Mediterranean Sea, taking more than 700 hostages. One U.S. passenger was murdered before the Egyptian government offered the terrorists safe haven in return for the hostages’ freedom.

Egyptian Airliner Hijacking, November 23, 1985: An EgyptAir airplane bound from Athens to Malta and carrying several U.S. citizens was hijacked by the Abu Nidal Group.

Aircraft Bombing in Greece, March 30, 1986: A Palestinian splinter group detonated a bomb as TWA Flight 840 approached Athens airport, killing four U.S. citizens.

Berlin Discothèque Bombing, April 5, 1986: Two U.S. soldiers were killed and 79 American servicemen were injured in a Libyan bomb attack on a nightclub in West Berlin, West Germany. In retaliation U.S. military jets bombed targets in and around Tripoli and Benghazi.

Bus Attack, April 24, 1987: Sixteen U.S. servicemen riding in a Greek Air Force bus near Athens were injured in an apparent bombing attack, carried out by the revolutionary organization known as November 17.

Kidnapping of William Higgins, February 17, 1988: U.S. Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel W. Higgins was kidnapped and murdered by the Iranian-backed Hizballah group while serving with the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization (UNTSO) in southern Lebanon.

Naples USO Attack, April 14, 1988: The Organization of Jihad Brigades exploded a car-bomb outside a USO Club in Naples, Italy, killing one U.S. sailor.

Pan Am 103 Bombing, December 21, 1988: Pan American Airlines Flight 103 was blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, by a bomb believed to have been placed on the aircraft by Libyan terrorists in Frankfurt, West Germany. All 259 people on board were killed.

Attempted Iraqi Attacks on U.S. Posts, January 18-19, 1991: Iraqi agents planted bombs at the U.S. Ambassador to Indonesia’s home residence and at the USIS library in Manila.

World Trade Center Bombing, February 26, 1993: The World Trade Center in New York City was badly damaged when a car bomb planted by Islamic terrorists exploded in an underground garage. The bomb left 6 people dead and 1,000 injured. The men carrying out the attack were followers of Umar Abd al-Rahman, an Egyptian cleric who preached in the New York City area.

Attempted Assassination of President Bush by Iraqi Agents, April 14, 1993: The Iraqi intelligence service attempted to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush during a visit to Kuwait. In retaliation, the U.S. launched a cruise missile attack 2 months later on the Iraqi capital Baghdad.

Attack on U.S. Diplomats in Pakistan, March 8, 1995: Two unidentified gunmen killed two U.S. diplomats and wounded a third in Karachi, Pakistan.

Jerusalem Bus Attack, August 21, 1995: HAMAS claimed responsibility for the detonation of a bomb that killed 6 and injured over 100 persons, including several U.S. citizens.

Saudi Military Installation Attack, November 13, 1995: The Islamic Movement of Change planted a bomb in a Riyadh military compound that killed one U.S. citizen, several foreign national employees of the U.S. government, and over 40 others.

HAMAS Bus Attack, February 26, 1996: In Jerusalem, a suicide bomber blew up a bus, killing 26 persons, including three U.S. citizens, and injuring some 80 persons, including three other US citizens.

Dizengoff Center Bombing, March 4, 1996: HAMAS and the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) both claimed responsibility for a bombing outside of Tel Aviv's largest shopping mall that killed 20 persons and injured 75 others, including 2 U.S. citizens.

West Bank Attack, May 13, 1996: Arab gunmen opened fire on a bus and a group of Yeshiva students near the Bet El settlement, killing a dual U.S./Israeli citizen and wounding three Israelis. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, but HAMAS was suspected.

Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996: A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the US military's Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. Several groups claimed responsibility for the attack.

Empire State Building Sniper Attack, February 23, 1997: A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland, and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine."

Murder of U.S. Businessmen in Pakistan, November 12, 1997: Two unidentified gunmen shot to death four U.S. auditors from Union Texas Petroleum Corporation and their Pakistani driver after they drove away from the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. The Islami Inqilabi Council, or Islamic Revolutionary Council, claimed responsibility in a call to the U.S. Consulate in Karachi. In a letter to Pakistani newspapers, the Aimal Khufia Action Committee also claimed responsibility.

Somali Hostage-takings, April 15, 1998: Somali militiamen abducted nine Red Cross and Red Crescent workers at an airstrip north of Mogadishu. The hostages included a U.S. citizen, a German, a Belgian, a French, a Norwegian, two Swiss, and one Somali. The gunmen were members of a sub-clan loyal to Ali Mahdi Mohammed, who controlled the northern section of the capital.

U.S. Embassy Bombings in East Africa, August 7, 1998: A bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, killing 12 U.S. citizens, 32 Foreign Service Nationals (FSNs), and 247 Kenyan citizens. Approximately 5,000 Kenyans, 6 U.S. citizens, and 13 FSNs were injured. The U.S. Embassy building sustained extensive structural damage. Almost simultaneously, a bomb detonated outside the U.S. Embassy in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, killing 7 FSNs and 3 Tanzanian citizens, and injuring 1 U.S. citizen and 76 Tanzanians. The explosion caused major structural damage to the U.S. Embassy facility. The U.S. Government held Usama Bin Laden responsible.

Attack on U.S.S. Cole, October 12, 2000: In Aden, Yemen, a small dingy carrying explosives rammed the destroyer U.S.S. Cole, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39 others. Supporters of Usama Bin Laden were suspected.

Manila Bombing, December 30, 2000: A bomb exploded in a plaza across the street from the U.S. Embassy in Manila, injuring nine persons. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front was likely responsible.

Philippines Hostage Incident, May 27, 2001: Muslim Abu Sayyaf guerrillas seized 13 tourists and 3 staff members at a resort on Palawan Island and took their captives to Basilan Island. The captives included three U.S. citizens: Guellermo Sobero and missionaries Martin and Gracia Burnham. Philippine troops fought a series of battles with the guerrillas between June 1 and June 3 during which 9 hostages escaped and two were found dead. The guerrillas took additional hostages when they seized the hospital in the town of Lamitan. On June 12, Abu Sayyaf spokesman Abu Sabaya claimed that Sobero had been killed and beheaded; his body was found in October. The Burnhams remained in captivity until June 2002.


We were well hated long before 9/11. They just finally figured out how to get to us on our own soil finally.

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