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The Most Offensive Defence is A Spun Offence.
Published on June 8, 2005 By kingbee In Politics

gulag.

amazing that one small word can be so powerful or evoke such a horrific response. 

i first became familiar with the concept while reading 'one day in the life of ivan denisovich' by alexander solzhenitsyn when i was still in grade school (clearly my recreational reading tastes were a bit precocious as well as extreme).  for a week during the summer between 7th and 8th grade, i shivered in the heat and humidity of late july in da motah city as ivan and i--convict slave laborers--endured the frozen extremes of siberia and the brutally inhumane excesses of a pitiless totalitarian state that had nullified our lives.

why were we there?  for how long would we remain?  there was no way of knowing.  worst of all, no one--least of all our former families and friends-- except those who kept us here and our fellow slaves knew for sure we even existed. 

amnesty international's international report, released on may 25, 2005, characterizes as a gulag the facility at guantanamo, cuba where the us holds some of  those captured in its war on terrorism.   not surprisingly, the current administration refutes that designation.  according to bush, it's an obvious case of disassembly (which he defines as lying).

not surprisingly, there are more than a few ju bloggers who are outraged by the amnesty international report.  

the war on terror is an honorable endeavor being waged against those who hate us and are willing to go to any length to destroy us because--as our president has proclaimed--they hate freedom.

finally  amnesty international has revealed its true agenda  and shown it hates us and our freedom as well.

how could we have been so foolish as to believe that an organization which has, for years, despised  the freedom enjoyed in north korea, china, vietnam, algeria, myanmar,  the maldives, turkey, morroco, today's russia, the former soviet union and its eastern european colonies, chile (under pinochet), argentina, cuba, the sudan and dozens of other bastion of freedom countries wouldn't eventually add us to the list.? 

fortunately we have plenty of examples on which to base our response---thanks to those nations for which this whole thing is old hat.

before we go there, let's clear something up.  guantanamo isn't a network of slave labor camps in the wilds of siberia into which millions of our own citizens disappear, most never to return.  hell, it's not even cold there.

on the other hand, perhaps amnesty international meant it figuratively.  after all, there are 500 people who've been locked up in gitmo for nearly 3 years without ever having been charged with any crime.  as far as they know, it could be another 20 years before they'll have a day in court.  their families have no clue as to their status.  no one except the force that's detaining them knows whether they're well or ill or alive.

nawwww.  that couldn't be it.

ai has a lotta nerve.  after all, didn't the president pledge in his 2nd inaugural address that the us was dedicated to spreading democracy and freedom.  aren't we spending billions and putting our military into harm's way to do just that in iraq?  if you can't trust our government, who can you trust?  

(who better to answer that question than those of you who join heston in announcing that they'll have to pry your gun outta your cold dead hands.  but then again, amnesty international doesn't own any guns huh?)

so anyway we're busy spreading freedom and democracy  not only by deed but by example--certainly there's no better advertisement than good example--and all amnesty international can do is criticize us.

no wonder cheney took offense and won't take ai seriously.  he's a flexible guy and just because he, the president and rumsfeld used to take them seriously enough to cite them multiple times in white house position papers  on hussein's iraq  Link  (In August 2001 Amnesty International released a report entitled Iraq -- Systematic Torture of Political Prisoners, which detailed the systematic and routine use of torture against suspected political opponents and, occasionally, other prisoners. Amnesty International also reports "Detainees have also been threatened with bringing in a female relative, especially the wife or the mother, and raping her in front of the detainee. Some of these threats have been carried out." ) , don't mean he cant change his mind.  or maybe his mind is the same but amnesty international is different. ( i can hear him singing along with joe walsh...'everybody's so different, i'm still the same.' )

fact is, amnesty international provided a good deal of the source material used by bush, cheney and rumsfeld to justify their planned invasion of iraq.  so having ai slam em now must really not bother them a bit because the organization just doesn't have any credibility

not that everything ai had to say about america was bad.  they approved the supreme court ruling that requires a court hearing for prisoners of the 'war on terror'.   big deal huh?

the final straw has to be ai's outrageous demands that the us stop secretly holding prisoners incommunicado (ghost prisoners), permit the international red cross access to all prisoners, ensure due process for all prisoners, implement an independent investigation of all allegations of torture and prosecute all who cause detainees to be brutalized or tortured while in the custody of the us. 

if that sounds familiar, it's probably cuz those damn amnesty international freedom-haters stole it directly from past presidents who demanded the soviet union do the same thing at their gulags.

if all of this pisses you off, you're not alone.

i'm pissed off too.  pissed off really badly that my country has engaged in the type of thing for which we used to condemn rogue states like north korea and the soviet union.   pissed off that my president says he wants to promote democracy and freedom throughout the world while eroding the essentials of democracy and freedom at home. pissed off that such blatant hypocrisy is ignored and--even worse--approved by those who claim to be the most stalwart advocates of the rule of law and our constitution.

one final note: in another thread, one commentor said he was dismayed because amnesty international had diminished the horror of the gulag in its report.  after all, there's no comparison.   this same commentor claims to be a student of history.  not a very good student in my opinion or he'd remember that gulags--like rome--aren't built in a day.  once you lay the first stone, the next one is a little easier. 


Comments (Page 3)
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on Jun 09, 2005

Well, might as well treat them like crap then, deny them their rights, torture them...........

Show us the PROOF.  When did you stop beating your wife BTW?

on Jun 09, 2005
When did you stop beating your wife BTW?


I'm not married, but thanks for the inappropriate comparison. I'm sure if it was just you, someone who didn't know me, didn't know my character and lack of temper, integrity and faith, it would be a groundless allegation. Yet if some people who did know me, had spent time with me and maybe witnessed some violence, or consequences of violence, made the same allegations they would need to be looked at and proved to be right or wrong.

Show us the PROOF


Yeah, you must be right. They all got together around the pool in Cuba, sipped their expensive cocktails and decidied to concoct a story of their own that would make the US look bad. They seemed to have convinced a lot of people with their fabrication

on Jun 09, 2005
I didn't have to look far to find this amazing evidence either.



Link

Link

Link


Just because you can find a story about something, it doesn't make it true.

Also, I second what Citizen Guy said about asking a prisoner about his innocence; I used to work with a minimum security federal prison full of innocent people (if you listened to the prisoners).
on Jun 09, 2005
the original poster said Evidence


surely witnesses and experience of a situation counts along the lnes of evidence? Why do the courts call witnesses to give testimonies? Why do police take statements from people?

Is it not so the jury can then make a judgement based on these pieces of evidence presented to them?
on Jun 09, 2005
Just because you can find a story about something, it doesn't make it true.


So because something ridiculous turns up in the news then all news is ridiculous?

I find that argument totally ridiculous

"It has been reported that Nessie has been seen in Scotland, therefore there is no mistreatment of prisoners in Cuba"

I feel like I'm arguing in a schoolyard!
on Jun 09, 2005

#32 by The Original Vune
Thursday, June 09, 2005





When did you stop beating your wife BTW?


I'm not married, but thanks for the inappropriate comparison. I'm sure if it was just you, someone who didn't know me, didn't know my character and lack of temper, integrity and faith, it would be a groundless allegation. Yet if some people who did know me, had spent time with me and maybe witnessed some violence, or consequences of violence, made the same allegations they would need to be looked at and proved to be right or wrong.


Just to let you know....his comment was sarcasm. The line comes "directly" from an old Groucho Marx routine. Also an FYI.... (you may not be a liberal but you sure are a leftie!)the detainees have it a lot better than most criminal prisoners. BTW allegations are NOT considered proof of a deed. And that's all your links are is allegations.
on Jun 09, 2005
My previous in reply to Original Vune will be my lasy as I do not associate with Wife Beaters (thanks for the testimony Dr. Guy)
on Jun 09, 2005
My previous reply to Original Vune will be my last, as I do not associate with Wife Beaters (thanks for the testimony Dr. Guy)
on Jun 09, 2005

My previous in reply to Original Vune will be my lasy as I do not associate with Wife Beaters (thanks for the testimony Dr. Guy)

!  I have as much proof of that allegation as he does of the former prisoner's allegations.

And Vune, they call eye witnesses to corroborate other testimony and/or evidence.  If it is just 'his word' against 'their word', it gets tossed out of court in a heart beat.  You should learn your law better.

on Jun 09, 2005
And you should stop being disrespectful of me. But, hey, I tried to keep it on subject and not et personal, although its what I have come to expect. I refer you to my other forum post made today

Link

BTW allegations are NOT considered proof of a deed.


I wasn't claiming them to be proof, but allegations that need to be investigated, as the whole inappropriate "wife beating" thread that has started would hopefully be looked into
on Jun 09, 2005
"I feel like I'm arguing in a schoolyard!"


But you are dismissing a very valid point.

Almost everyone that is acquitted of a crime has a witness testify for the prosecution. If a 'witness' was all that is necessary, then there wouldn't be enough prisons in the world to hold everyone sent to jail.

What people expect are witnesses that aren't insanely biased. In terms of this blog, I think most people see Amnesty International as a very anti-Bush administration entity. Time after time after time, they bring new, very subjective judgments of the US.

Here's a question for you. If Amnesty International were a person giving testimony in a trial, would they be seen by the jury as credible and not motivated by hate? I think any half-decent defense attorney could show them to be overtly and unfairly biased against this defendant.
on Jun 09, 2005
Oh Vune is most defenitely a liberal. He still has yet to do anything but accuse and criticize. He has no answers for anything.
on Jun 09, 2005
the detainees have it a lot better than most criminal prisoners


Where is your proof for this? If we are playing the "statements must be backed up by proof" game
on Jun 09, 2005
Oh Vune is most defenitely a liberal. He still has yet to do anything but accuse and criticize. He has no answers for anything.


The beginning of finding out what is going on in the camp, and proof either way beyond doubt, is surely a start to an answer.

An answer is only good if it is right.
on Jun 09, 2005
Another post, yet still no answers from Vune.
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